Need a new clutch soon...should I go King Cobra or Spec Stage I?

Imyourzero

Imyourzero

Learned that lesson as a horny teenager with lots
Founding Member
Mar 10, 2002
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Hoonose, U.S.A. Posts: 39,051
#1
I haven't noticed any slippage but it's letting out pretty close to the top of the pedal travel. I'll have the car running with the AFR's on Monday so it's probably time to replace the stocker anyway. I was thinking of either the King Cobra or a Spec Stage I. Not really sure which one to get.

I've driven a friend's car with the King Cobra clutch, and it seemed to have pretty strong clamping force. How many HP does the King Cobra support?

As for Spec clutches, most people say to go with the Stage II to have room to expand but the Stage I supports up to 400hp and I won't be near that territory without adding nitrous or a supercharger (neither of which will come anytime soon). Also, I hear the organic disc in the Stage I kit is more streetable/better suited for a daily driver than the organic disc that comes with the Stage II.

For anyone who owns one, how is the pedal feel with the Spec Stage I? Lighter or heavier than stock?

Also, should I just get a new flywheel or have my old one resurfaced?
 

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#4
Have it resurfaced if it hasn't been done too many times. If you can afford a new one, go for it. I have had the Centerforce DF, and the King Cobra, and hated both of them. I actually grenaded the DF, and the KC gave me major issues. No troubles, however, with my SPEC I. It was cheaper than either of the other two, has a lighter pedal than either of the others, and holds better nomatter what abuse I throw at it... which is extensive. I bought it as a package direct from SPEC, it was just under $400 for the stage I clutch, PP and TB, and their billet steel flywheel with adjustable counterbalance, delivered. The main thing you need to do, particularly if you are replacing or resurfacing the flywheel, is that you follow the clutch brake in proceedure to the letter. There are a lot of people spreading bad rumors about good clutches because they didn't break them in right and then get pissed when they underperform. I will never, however, recommend either FRPP or Centerforce clutches again, having had extensive problems with both. As for deciding which stage to get, you are on the right track with the stage one, how many people really need a clutch that holds over 400HP? SPEC rates their clutches at the ground too, not the flywheel; and the only difference between stages I-III is the disc itself. If you do go up on the power, the PP and TB can be re-used. In that regard, it isn't really realistic to give yourself room to grow with a clutch unless you absolutely know you are getting a blower in a few months or something. Lots of folks in here have been happy getting their SPEC's from Perky, may want to check him out. Good luck
 
#8
stangbear427 said:
Have it resurfaced if it hasn't been done too many times. If you can afford a new one, go for it. I have had the Centerforce DF, and the King Cobra, and hated both of them. I actually grenaded the DF, and the KC gave me major issues. No troubles, however, with my SPEC I. It was cheaper than either of the other two, has a lighter pedal than either of the others, and holds better nomatter what abuse I throw at it... which is extensive. I bought it as a package direct from SPEC, it was just under $400 for the stage I clutch, PP and TB, and their billet steel flywheel with adjustable counterbalance, delivered. The main thing you need to do, particularly if you are replacing or resurfacing the flywheel, is that you follow the clutch brake in proceedure to the letter. There are a lot of people spreading bad rumors about good clutches because they didn't break them in right and then get pissed when they underperform. I will never, however, recommend either FRPP or Centerforce clutches again, having had extensive problems with both. As for deciding which stage to get, you are on the right track with the stage one, how many people really need a clutch that holds over 400HP? SPEC rates their clutches at the ground too, not the flywheel; and the only difference between stages I-III is the disc itself. If you do go up on the power, the PP and TB can be re-used. In that regard, it isn't really realistic to give yourself room to grow with a clutch unless you absolutely know you are getting a blower in a few months or something. Lots of folks in here have been happy getting their SPEC's from Perky, may want to check him out. Good luck
Click to expand...

Thanks for the advice. I was leaning toward the SPEC clutch anyway, and when you said it has a lighter pedal feel you helped me make my decision. I'd much rather have a lighter pedal than one that will make my left leg twice as muscular as my right. ;)

Two questions, though. If I just get a SPEC clutch kit and maybe a flywheel, will I have everything I need? Not sure if I need a flywheel yet, but I'm sure a new one wouldn't hurt if I have the extra cash.

My other question is regarding the break-in. I know a proper break-in period is important with a new clutch. What precautions do I need to take? How do I need to treat it, and for how many miles?
 
#9
stangbear427 said:
Got extries?
Dunno... wtf are extries? :scratch:
Click to expand...

It comes from an inside joke between myself and a friend of mine who had a totally restored `66 Mustang. When a car was modified to be fast, he used to say "it's got extries" a.k.a. "extras" a.k.a. performance mods. So I put a spinoff of the "Got Milk?" slogan in my sig--I figured it would be a very appropriate thing on this forum but I wasn't sure how many people knew what it meant. :)
 
#10
hey Jordan, how goes it?
i have read nothing but good stuff about Spec's until a thread in the last day or two. a bunch of people bashed them. im not going to speculate if it was break-in issues, as that will just start a thread war.....someone was saying something about the disc on a stage 1 being organic (i honestly dont know what most discs are made out of).
so i tossed that out, just for info's sake....i still plan on goin with a SPEC when the time comes. i will research a little on what disc to use...

that said, Jess - you have some of the best info in here, and the experience to back it up, so i would not hesitate to follow your example and advice. i enjoy readin your posts.

Jordan, i like how you put your # of posts in your location. i crapped myself at first when i saw that, until i looked closer. :D i thought you were like Curt or something. :)
good luck with the mods, Jordan. take care.
 
#11
OH! Extries... yeah, I got extries.
HISSEN thanks for the props. To quote Michael Yount: Mutual respect community, back atcha.

If I remember right, my kit had everything I needed. Except the rear main seal, which isn't really necessary, but it's kinda stupid not to change it while it's accessable since they go so often. On that note, it's worth the extra $7 for the exotic Felpro one. I used ARP hardware on it all too, but the stock stuff is fine being re-used. Only when the flywheel/clutch has been out three or four times, then the stock bolts integrity starts to get a bit iffy.

Brake in: Minimum of 500 stop and go miles (that's city, not highway) with absoluty NO driving at WOT in any gear at any speed, and no aggressive launches. Understand that the clutch disc doesn't stick to the FW itself, it sticks to the build up of clutch material on the FW. It takes these miles in the break in period to "dress" the FW properly. Not driving like grandma during the break in period will cause slippage, even if you don't feel it. This causes the FW to be dressed un-evenly. This is the cause of at least 90% of the drivability problems people have with clutches. This is also why it's so important to at least re-surface the flywheel when a new clutch is installed. If the last one wasn't broken in right, the new one is being expected to work properly with a FW that's handicapped, which isn't even getting into the complications of different clutch types and materials trying to adhere to the old material. SPEC clutches in particular need to be broken in right to perform right. Don't know why- maybe something to do with how sticky they are- but they aren't as forgiving as some of the other harder ones (like the FRPP and ZOOM) to an aggressive break in.
 
#12
good info, Jess!
what is the exotic rear main seal? im guessing a teflon version....?
that is the way to go as far as i know, too (if that is what you are talkin about). :nice:
 
#13
I can only give you what experience I have had with clutches which is less than some and more than others. I had a stage 1 spec - the organic disc refers to the type of material in the friction disc. Their stage 2 and up are made of of kevlar. I installed the stage 1 without any problems. I also installed a new steel flywheel at the same time. From day 1 was unhappy with it - I gave it a break in period of 500 miles - during the whole time the clutch chattered - this got to the point where I didn't enjoy driving the car anymore. When I finally pulled it, there was clutch dust everywhere - and hotspots all over the pressure plate and flywheel. I returned everything to Spec on my dime. They replaced it with a stage 2, but did not/would not tell me what was wring with the stage 1. They did not indicate there was improper installation/break in etc. They simply said we'll replace it. So now I have a stage 2 in - this clutch is MUCH better than the stage 1. Slight chatter when starting in 1 st gear, but great on all other gear changes. THe chatter is getting better and better all the time. I have about 2-300 miles on it at this point.
I don't know about the comment of the friction disc sticking to the build up of clutch material on the flywheel - if you could point me to where you came across that little tidbit, I would be interested in reading more about it. My understanding about resurfacing the flywheel is more to give a smooth surface for the new friction disc rather than to remove the old material from the previous disc.
The only other comment I have, is if your rear main seal isn't leaking, leave it alone -you have a much greater chance of it leaking after you replace it, than if you just leave it be. Of course if it is already leaking, it obviously needs to be replaced.

Just my $0.02 :)

Howard
 
#14
Yes, the teflon one. As for risking a leak by changing it, I guess that's all in how comfortable you are doing it. They do have an amazingly short life span under duress, as the design Ford gave us for our windsor blocks is an inherently bad design. Threrefore, it's usually a good idea to do it when there is an opportunity because if it isn't leaking, it will. Nothing sucks worse than going through hours of work to change a $3 part when you could have done it a few months back while it was all opened up for a nobler cause. Howard, it concerns me that SPEC wasn't more forthright with you about the problem, and I hesitate to take a shot at it since they didn't... not that you asked me to. However, it should never have chattered at any point, and if it did it from day one then on day one something was wrong. It may have been a defective clutch, which is something that leaves the factories of every brand, but I don't know why they wouldn't have owned up to it. It sounds to me like you still have the problem only it isn't as bad with the stickier disc. Now, I know kevlar clutches are known to chatter a bit, so I could be wrong here. I've never used a SPEC kevlar, so I can't say about them- but my experience with a kevlar disc (a McCloud) was 100% chatter free for the countless thousands of miles I ran it. From the damage you describe I would bet that somehow the tranny/bell housing didn't get seated properly on the block again upon re-installation. Are you using the stock T5 and bell, or have you stepped up to a TTC gearbox or a scattershield? The only time I've seen the damage you described was when the centerlines of the crank and the input shaft aren't properly aligned, which is something most folks don't think about when they're putting in a tranny. Again, something I would expect SPEC to say something about, but evidently they weren't very talkative with you.
As for where I'm coming from with my adhesion philosophy- I wish I could refer you to some homework on clutch disc theory 101, but sadly, most of what I know I learned wrenching at the foot of an ASE certified master tech, with access to his IATN, Alldata, and CD rom materials all of which, alas, I no longer have access to since he closed his shop and started whoring himself out. I'm sure the material is out there, I just wouldn't know where to point you without going for the certs yourself, as unfortunately this is a little deaper into how it works than howthingswork.com seems to go. Many apologies. :( No one feels the loss greater than I...
 
#15
very interesting stuff, guys. i will butt in here, but im sure Jordan wont mind, since it will affect him possibly.
i really dont have any professional experience or engineering background, so i go with what is said to work and the experiences of folks in here (something along the lines of not being able to make all the mistakes, so learn from those of others).

would it be wise to get a stage 2 disc (kevlar) rather than a stage one (organic) for a near stock application (not Jordan's, but mine), when otherwise a stage one kit would have been the best product, based upon HP? i guess im asking which is more likely to be problematic. seems like the stage 2 disc might be better.? would one want to simply use a stage two kit rather than a stage one (nearly stock application)?

i know i hate organic brake pads, (to me, it seems like they are arguably quieter, but have a shorter lifespan - and thus create more dust, which is not of concern here, than semi metallic or carbon metallic).

what are the downsides to kevlar?

great info - i appreciate your sharing with a dummy like me.
BTW, Jess - the mutual respect thing is very true, though i am in nowhere near the league that you and Michael are! but the respect is definately there!
 
#16
BTW, in case anyone is interested, this is the other thread floating around (which Howard posted on too). when i referred to the only time having seen that Spec was not liked, this was the thread. again, not a flame thing - just for info purposes (Proxses talked about the disc compositiions and such a little bit, etc).
http://forums.stangnet.com/showthread.php?t=464818
 
#17
Thanks for the info guys. I really don't know which way to go with this. Some people are telling me to go with the King Cobra and others are saying SPEC Stage II. I'm kind of afraid to put a really strong clutch in there with my T5, because a guy on the 94/95 forums recently put in a SPEC Stage II and it clamped so hard that it wrecked the 3rd gear in his tranny. But if I do add more power in the future, the Stage II would accomodate.

As for chatter, I've heard the Stage III is really bad for that. VibrantRedGT put in a SPEC Stage III after his S-Trim went on (he already had GT-40x's and a Crower 15511) and I remember him posting about how bad the chatter was. But sure enough, after the break-in period he said it got a lot quieter and he really liked the clutch.
 
#19
...though i am in nowhere near the league that you and Michael are
Click to expand...
Heh- and I'm not even halfway into Michaels league- but there we have it.
Many think overkilling on the clutch is a good idea because at the least, it gives you room to grow. A lot. This is not, however, the viewpoint of SPEC, or most of the clutch companies I've talked to. Unlike brakes (the better, the better) a clutch is like a speaker. It was designed to run at a certain ohm and wattage, and underpowering is almost as dangerous as overpowering. Not a perfect alegory, but you get the idea. Kevlar discs are known to be less daily driver friendly, with more inclination to chatter. As I said, not in my experience on my 300HP streetcar, and my McCloud was a huge overkill in it. However, they didn't get their reputation for drivability issues because everyone had great luck like I did. So if anything, you are more likely to have a problem. Howards case is impressive, but something was horribly wrong. What is a mystery, but it isn't a reason to write off organic discs as a bad gamble, quite the opposite. I think you may be considering jumping from the pan to the fire, so to speak. The fact is, I have seen almost every clutch out there blow up, used many of them myself, and everyone has different experiences with the same ones. Not to flame on backyarders, becuase I did all my own work for years, but while working in a shop under a real pro I saw firsthand just how easy it is to botch things up. Having had that opportunity, I don't do my own work anymore even if I think I can- I'll take my car to whoever my guy is working for and have him do it. Most clutches are good clutches. Most problems are due to installation errors, and there are dozens of factors that can affect the outcome. You can take a clutch that feels like a truck and make it swing like a stock B/W one just by spacing out your billet quadrant with washers. Stupid little things like that make all the difference, and there are just as many variables that can change by taking it all out. You can remove the same tranny three times and put three of the same clutches in and they can all feel, last, and perform different, based on how well you torqued it all down, how well your centerlines are balanced, or what day they left the plant. We should be more concerned about what brand of technician is doing the work than what brand of clutch he's installing. Oh, and not to be too hypocritical in the very next sentence after sayaing that, but we don't do Centerforce or King Cobras anymore... more explosions than WWII and not enough HP to justify them...
 
#20
Even though cobradvm had a bad experience, it says alot that Spec replaced it. Most companies wouldn't do that without a big fight. Every company have flukes.

A clutch works much like a brake system in theroy, same concept. Like a break system, break-in is very important. The materiels have to seat togeather. The flywheel has it's surface and so does the pressure plate and then the clutch disc which is the friction material has it's own surface. By machining you bring these surfaces to a smooth flat surface unneffected by other factors, so they will find thier medium and wear so 100% of the materials are togeather, but before break in the surfaces arn't 100% togeather so if you are too hard on it then it won't grip right causing excessive slip and heat which will cause materials to melt which will result in glazing which will make a surface which is near impossible for the friction material to cling to and the problem will only get worse leaking to hot spots which can ruin the flywheel.

If I were to buy a clutch, I would get a Spec Stage II. Stage 1 might be able to hold but I am mean to clutches.
 
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