Fuel Possible fuel issue.

[jrichker]

You don't need a new computer. You need to read the full text of the Test path. You said you had idle problems, and code 19 can log those problems.

Code 19...
"Engine running - Erratic idle during test (reset throttle & retest) - Idle Set Procedures .
See http://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums/698148-help-me-create-surging-idle-checklist.html#post6855020 for the best way to set the mechanical base idle and cleaning procedure for the IAC/IAB."

 

[olmstead.jim.w]

ok, I apologize, apparently I am getting confused. So just to clearify because I am obviously reading everything wrong... reset the throttle and do the tests again?
what does it mean by...

Since the computer zeros out the TPS voltage every time it powers up, playing with the settings isn't an effective aid to performance or drivability. The main purpose of checking the TPS is to make sure it isn't way out of range and causing problems.

It sounds to me like it will go back to the original setting after you turn the key off and turn it back on? Like I said I keep reading things wrong apparently so im probably wrong about that as well but if I am right, and this just shows if the TPS is causing problems would that mean that the TPS would also make it give me the codes for 15, 42, 92, and 33 or could the TPS be confusing the computer into thinking that there is a problem in other places.

I am sorry for all the questions and I must sound like I don't know anything at all but I assure you that im not completely dumb I just feel like I have a lot of issues going on and looking in too many directions at one time. I am almost to the point of feeling like I want to give up and sell this one to buy the one that was offered to me a couple weeks ago but I'm stubborn and want to make this one right because I like the look of it better. I just hope I'm not being to much of a bother. So again I am sorry for all the questions and the confusion on my end... I have always learned better by watching or being shown but I am trying to learn now by reading and that's seeming a little tougher for me but I know I will get it or at least I hope I do...

Thank you again...

 

[Blown88GT]

You're doing OK. Just hang in there & keep at it. That looks like it's going to a nice car after a good cleaning.
Many of us just have a lot more experience with these cars. The primary problem is remembering everything.
Keep in mind, the ECU was designed almost 40 years ago. Do you have any computers that are half or even a quarter this age? Probably not.
Wait till you get to be my age...always confused (LOL).

 

[olmstead.jim.w]

lol yeah, thank you again. In the past I have always had Camaro's or my 83 Buick Regal and they were all carburated. Anything that went wrong there was always mechanical and fairly easy to diagnose. This is the first Mustang I've ever owned so its all new to me it feels like.

I checked the TPS tonight after going for a ride and it was set at .8 . So I didn't adjust or change anything however i did disconnect the battery for 10 mins even though there wasn't any change. after that I was just checking different things out making sure that the wiring under the hood all looked good and the vacuum lines were ok (just because they were in front of me so I got distracted) and I ended up unplugging the IAB for a min while it was running rough. Ran worse but kept running which I expected but then when I plugged it back in, it started idling perfect. I got in, hit the throttle a couple times and still back to a perfect idle with no hesitation. Went for another ride and when I pulled back in the driveway it went back to the surging. Let It sit got a min and then hit the throttle quick and it went back to regular no surging idle. After another ride however its back to the surging idle again.

Tomorrow I will plan on cleaning the IAB. I have been reading the post about doing that. I am assuming that you need to remove the IAB to clean it? Also when its talking about cleaning the TB are you talking about cleaning the area where the IAB connects at?

thank you again...

 

[olmstead.jim.w]

SO I just did a bunch of reading. Mostly the checklist but looked at a couple other articles in various places and finally dawned on me that I wasn't checking a couple things right... Like I said, over thinking things and getting distracted. Once I relaxed a bit and read things a couple times it all started to make better sense. Tomorrow I will get back into things (Weather permitting) and do the cleaning and also reset the idle appropriately along with resetting the computer. Tomorrow will be a better day...

Thank you again for your time and patience with me.

 

[Blown88GT]

...
Tomorrow I will plan on cleaning the IAB. I have been reading the post about doing that. I am assuming that you need to remove the IAB to clean it? Also when its talking about cleaning the TB are you talking about cleaning the area where the IAB connects at?...

1 connector & 2 screws to remove it. Don't damage the gasket, it will usually stick to one side or the other.
You can temporarily connect some wires to IAB (IAC), touch them to the battery & watch the valve spool back & forth. It should not stick part way or hang up.
In real use, it's actuated with a pulsed square wave, around 100 Hz. 50% duty cycle would place the valve halfway through it's normal travel.
I don't think you can connect & disconnect it from the battery that fast. (LOL)
I've done a lot of off the engine testing with it. IAC is never fully closed, about 20-100% open, i.e. it always bypasses some air. Therefore throttle stop can be almost all the way closed. Don't want it all the way closed, or it will stick. They're talking about cleaning the throttle plate, so it doesn't stick against the TB. Your symptoms sound like it is sticking.

 

[olmstead.jim.w]

so Good news finally... Today we did plugs, wires, cap, rotor and new thermostat. Then I cleaned the IAC. Put everything back together and it finally idles like it should... Took it for 2 rides only about 4-5 miles and it idled perfectly after. Tomorrow I will take it for a longer trip and see if it continues to function properly. Still think its burning more fuel than it should be (little bit of black smoke still, but wasn't sure if that was from the cleaner), however I haven't checked the codes again. Tomorrow I may do that to see what they say now. Feeling a bit better about things and looking forward to daytime so I can give it a good run and see what happens.

Thank you all again

 

[olmstead.jim.w]

ok so im back again lol... Here is everything that has been done. Plugs, Wires, Cap, rotor thermostat, EGR, EGR position sensor, PCV valve, Breather filter under PCV, cleaned the MAF and IAC. Checked to make sure that the MAF was wired properly and the MAP Sensor was taken care of according to the MAF Conversion instruction. Disconnected the battery for a little over an hour while I was doing other things, hooked it back up and took it for a 10 mile ride, idles seemingly perfect now, no fluctuation as all. Ran the codes again and here are the codes I have now.

Key On Engine Off:
19, 82

Coninuous Memory
15.

I did not do the running tests yet because my book for the code reader tells me to fix these issues first. Now I know that we have discussed a lot about these codes before when trying to solve the Idle issue. Since the idle issue is seemingly fixed, what would be the next step to solve these code. I keep over thinking things and I am thankful that you all have been so patient with me in pointing me in the right directions.

 

[Blown88GT]

ok so im back again lol... Here is everything that has been done. Plugs, Wires, Cap, rotor thermostat, EGR, EGR position sensor, PCV valve, Breather filter under PCV, cleaned the MAF and IAC. Checked to make sure that the MAF was wired properly and the MAP Sensor was taken care of according to the MAF Conversion instruction. Disconnected the battery for a little over an hour while I was doing other things, hooked it back up and took it for a 10 mile ride, idles seemingly perfect now, no fluctuation as all. Ran the codes again and here are the codes I have now.

Key On Engine Off:
19, 82

Coninuous Memory
15.

I did not do the running tests yet because my book for the code reader tells me to fix these issues first. Now I know that we have discussed a lot about these codes before when trying to solve the Idle issue. Since the idle issue is seemingly fixed, what would be the next step to solve these code. I keep over thinking things and I am thankful that you all have been so patient with me in pointing me in the right directions.

KOEO - 19 - Failure in EEC internal voltage.
KOEO - 82 - code does not exist.

CM - 15 - EEC battery powered Keep Alive Memory (KAM) test failed.
KAM is pin 1 which is live all the time as long as the battery is connected.

Go back to Post #19, which says in part:

Code 19 - Engine off - No Vehicle Power (pins 37 + 57) or bad PCM VPWR Diagnosis. This is a wiring problem that is from a bad ECC power relay, bad connection, bad fuse link, bad ignition switch or a bad computer. The ECC relay is located on top of the computer under the passenger side kick panel. Pull the connector off any fuel injector and measure the voltage on the red wire: if its 12 volts or better, the ECC relay is OK. If the ECC relay is OK, pull the kick panel off and measure the voltage at pins 37 & 57. If it is 12 volts or more, then the computer's diagnostic firmware has taken a dump and is defective.

Given how dirty everything was, both sides of the connector probably need a good cleaning. CRC Contact Cleaner (Walmart) works great. Then lube every pin with dielectric grease.

 

[olmstead.jim.w]

ok thank you... This is were I got confused before because I had done the test in the part you just mentioned and got these results:

Voltage at the Injectors at the Red wire = 12.4
Voltage at pins 37 & 57 12.2

However when I asked if what I was reading would make it sound like theres a problem with the Computer, I got:

You don't need a new computer. You need to read the full text of the Test path. You said you had idle problems, and code 19 can log those problems.

Code 19...
"Engine running - Erratic idle during test (reset throttle & retest) - Idle Set Procedures .
See http://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums/698148-help-me-create-surging-idle-checklist.html#post6855020 for the best way to set the mechanical base idle and cleaning procedure for the IAC/IAB."

At which time, I reset the idle, cleaned the IAC as instructed here,. Idle is better so that's taken care of and with the retest as stated with the code 19 I come up with the same results that I had before. Also now that you bring it up I did forget to mention I have used contact cleaner on every connection that I have touched though out this process just to make sure that everything is clean when I put it back together. I have not used dielectric grease on anything though.

So with all my confusion, have i overlooked or forgotten something that was mentioned in the testing for code 19 listed above? I keep reading over it but I feel Like ive done everything but replace the computer so far. If I have to replace the computer I will do it just to eliminate that as well, but it seems like im running out of things to test and/or replace. The more I keep thinking about it the more I frustrate myself. Would the dielectric grease make that much of a difference? If you think so I will go get some in the morning. Is that something that the parts stores would carry or would I need to go to an electronics store?

And my last question for the moments I guess is, if the computer does need to be replaced, are there any good sugestions on where to buy one? I keep seeing a wide range of prices (some of which are far too high for me to afford *$700* just to try it) and the lower priced ones I saw ($130 but not sure if they are from reliable sources).

Thank you again for all the help and info

 

[jrichker]

Here are my test results for today. It started raining so I wont be able to do much more today I don't think but hopefully I can get back at it tomorrow.

Voltage at the Injectors at the Red wire = 12.4
Voltage at pins 37 & 57 12.2
Voltage at pins 29 & 43 with the engine at temp and idling was a steady .87

I rechecked the Mass Air Convertion setup and everything is done the way it it suppose to be. So here is what I am gathering from the information I have been reading here and please let me know if I am reading this all correctly or if I am overthinking things.

Injector red wire reading 12.4 would mean that the ECC relay is ok


Pins 37 & 57 reading 12.2v would sugest that the computers diagnostic firmware is defective. I am assuming that would mean I need a new computer?


PIns 29 & 43 reading a solid .87v with no fluctuation might suggest that the O2 sensors are bad?





Also I did check the charging system and at idle I get 13.88v. So I would assume that my alternator is working sufficiently.

Let me know what you all think. Sounds to me like I may need a computer and O2 Sensors.

Thanks again for your time and help.

You need to use an Analog meter or Digital meter with a bar graph display in addition to the digital readout when checking O2 sensors.. A meter with only a digital readout will give an average of the voltage output of the O2 sensor.

 

[Blown88GT]

Code 19 - Engine off - No Vehicle Power (pins 37 + 57) or bad PCM VPWR Diagnosis. This is a wiring problem that is from a bad ECC power relay, bad connection, bad fuse link, bad ignition switch or a bad computer. The ECC relay is located on top of the computer under the passenger side kick panel. Pull the connector off any fuel injector and measure the voltage on the red wire: if its 12 volts or better, the ECC relay is OK. If the ECC relay is OK, pull the kick panel off and measure the voltage at pins 37 & 57. If it is 12 volts or more, then the computer's diagnostic firmware has taken a dump and is defective.

He's trying to tell you, if you did this exactly as described, then the computer is the problem.
You can't have voltage on pins 37 & 57 if the ignition is off. When the EEC relay is on (when the ignition is on) is the only time there is voltage on these pins.
Test again, by disconnecting computer. If 0V, then it is the computer. If still 12V, then the relay or wiring or you.

 

[olmstead.jim.w]

ok thank you for clearing that up for me, I understand now. I have been looking for another computer for it but have been pretty unsuccessful other than a couple I say on eBay for about $400. I can afford to do that at the moment but I did see that there are places that claim to be able to remanufacture the computers for a little over $100 I think it was. You heard of anyone having this done and it being successful? I wrote the one place and described the issues and they said that they would be able to fix it for me. I'm just nervous about that because I would have to send them the only one I have and hope that they are reliable and send it back. Any thoughts there?

Thank you again, you have all been a great help.

 

[olmstead.jim.w]

Hello, I’m back again. I had the computer fixed, they found a couple things wrong with it, fixed them and now it bench tests fine.

Before when I would check pins 37&57 I would get 12v with the key off. Now it’s only 12v key on and no voltage key off which is how I would assume it should work.

I put it back in today and when I run the codes I still get code 19. At this point I am assuming that the computer is good because it bench tests good. Should I now assume that I have a wiring issue somewhere? If so where would I even start looking? If it was a bad fuse link I would assume that would mean I’d have no power at pin 1? Pin 1 currently has 12v key off. If it’s a bad ignition switch, how would I test to confirm that’s the issue (car starts every time but I’m assuming there’s more to it than just starting)

I think I might just be getting overly frustrated about this. I’ve never had this much of an issue trying to figure something out before n starting to feel like giving up. At the same time I’m stubborn n want to make it work right.

 

[jrichker]

@olmstead.jim.w

Code 19 has two possible conditions, and what you get depends on if you had the engine running or not when you dumped the codes.

First pass: Remember that there should not 12 volts at any of the engine sensor red wires with the key Off. If there is, you still have wiring problems.
The process is connect the scanner and turn the key to ON, but do not start the engine. Start the scanner and observe the code dump. If you get code 19, and you have a Equus 3145 Digital Ford Code Reader (see picture below) then press the button on the scanner to clear the codes. Turn the ignition off and slowly count to 20; then turn it back on, and dump the codes again. If you still get code 19, the computer is still in need of repair or replacement..

Second pass: NO code 19 after completing the above tests, then start the engine and dump the codes again. If you have a code 19 only when the engine is running, then you have idle problems.

 

[olmstead.jim.w]

Ok, got up today and checked the sensors, no power with the key off... hooked the code reader up (I have the same one shown above)... code 19 (KOEO)... presses the button to clear the codes, waited 20sec with th key off and did the test again to get another code 19 (KOEO)... so I think I’m going to continue searching fo another computer. Tough part is finding one that you know is good. I see them online different places for $300-$400 used but I just hate to spend that much on something that has no guarantee that it will be any better than what I have you know. I’ve been searching my local junk yards but haven’t had any luck finding one yet but I’ll keep searching...

Thank you again for your help and time..

 

[Blown88GT]

The ECU's are 30 years old. Finding another one will be difficult. The most common problem is leaking capacitors. There are 3. Open up the ECU & give us some close up pics. both sides. Could be a damaged trace.
Contact your local parts store & see what a core exchange is for an A9L. They used to be around $100.
Aftermarket ECU's are $1000 (new) but have a steep learning curve.

Capacitor Repair: Ford A9L ECM « Moates Support

#	KOEO	CM	KOER	Code Definition
19	X			Failure in EEC internal voltage.
19		X		Cylinder Identification CID circuit failure.
19			X	RPM erratic, dropped too low during test.

 

[olmstead.jim.w]

So I gave up for a while and finally found a different computer for it. Put it in tonight and now it starts and stalls. If I unplug the mass air sensor it will run but rough. I am going to go back though and read everything you guys have sent me and see if there is something i forgot but I am also wondering if I need a different mass air sensor. if that's the case, how would I know what the right one is that I should get to go with the computer?

thanks again

 

[olmstead.jim.w]

I got up this morning and ran the codes on the new computer after making sure to clear everything first. No I get 2 codes.

KOEO 82
Continuous Memory 18

Im getting mixed info on what code 82 is though. The code reader book says, Air diverter solenoid circuit Fault or supercharger bypass circuit fault but also says integrated relay control module.. Any thoughts as to what is the accurate place to look there? Also if its the air diverter solenoid I can understand that because I thought I notice it wasn't hooked up before, but then the smog pump isn't either. Either way I don't believe that would keep the car from starting and staying running would it?

Code 18 im confused on mostly because I guess I don't understand what SPOUT is. I have been trying to look it up but all I can tell is it goes to the TFi connector. Which the car runs with the other computer just doesn't function properly which makes me think there is a problem with the output on this computer at that pin maybe? I am going to try to look to see if there are any tests for that posted on here, butt if anyone reads this and can point me in the right direction sooner I would appreciate that too... Heading off to doctor appointments soon and hoping to check it out again when I get back. oh and also if this code would cause it to no stay running would it make sense that when I unhook the MASS Air Sensor that it will run?

Thank you again everyone for your time and help.

 

[General karthief]

This will show you where the spout is,

How To Time Your Mustang Ignition (86-93) - LMR.com

Watch our how to video and read the article for all the information you need to properly set the timing in your Mustang!

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