Thinking of building an N/A engine, list inside

[midnightdriver]

***So as the title states, I am thinking about building an N/A engine for my stang. I know FI makes more power, and have considered it quite a bit. However, I am not after monster power, just want a strong running reliable engine that meets my requirements. I know this is the more expensive route but I also want something different. Below is my build sheet, please let me know what you think, I have done quite a bit of research and could use some more good links/threads/builds.

Thanks!!


Block
5.0 Iron Big Bore

Heads
Either Foxlake/Livernois or Patriot Per Stage 3

Internals
Cobra Crank, Forged H Rods and Pistons to give me just under 10:1 CR

Cams
I am still researching, but prob stock cams, degreed or something similar to stock. I do not want any idle chop, they will not pass here if they have chop

Intake
Either Stock PI or HPS, I haven't decided yet

Exhaust
JBA shorty Ceramic headers, I know they do not provide much of a gain, but they are better then stock (proven, although small gain) plus they look better too. Long tubes repeat longtubes are not SMOG LEGAL so please don't suggest them.

Misc
70mm TB
C&L Plenum
Windage Tray
High Volume Oil Pump
24# injectors
Maganaflow X with Cali Cats


Goal
I want a solid engine that is DD capable and my goal is 325wrhp, anything more is just



Thanks for looking or helping me out. I plan to do some suspension work too and will due a full build thread if I go with this build.

 

[Winters98GT]

If different is the route you want, then it is up to you.

In my honest opinion, you are dumping a ton of money down the drain with that build. A TON of money.

 

[midnightdriver]

If different is the route you want, then it is up to you.

In my honest opinion, you are dumping a ton of money down the drain with that build. A TON of money.

Well, money is all relative and i invest with no concern with getting money back out, whats the point of that. All said and done, priced out I am at $4500 or so which is cheaper then a KB for my car. Plus then I have a new engine, not a boost 100K engine.

I mean a cobra or Z06 will run me 14-18k, and I got my car for free (long story). I am not set on this, just a feeler.

 

[Stumbaugh]

I think you have your goals set a little to high. A stage 3 cylinder head is to much for that combo with a stock intake and cams. Some MHS Stage 2 cylinder heads would be a better choice.

I'm not trying to be a douche, but I would be surprised if that combo broke 300rwhp, and I mean very surpised.

I would give Nick at Modular Head Shop a call and talk to him about the cams and cylinder heads.

 

[Stumbaugh]

Well, money is all relative and i invest with no concern with getting money back out, whats the point of that. All said and done, priced out I am at $4500 or so which is cheaper then a KB for my car. Plus then I have a new engine, not a boost 100K engine.

I mean a cobra or Z06 will run me 14-18k, and I got my car for free (long story). I am not set on this, just a feeler.

Why not look for a used Vortec centri supercharger for about $3,000 right now? You could be making around 400rwhp on your stock engine. Then take that extra $1,500 you saved and build a forged engine on the side. Then when the motoris done, drop that baby in one weekend, put a bigger pulley on it, and have a high horsepower car that is still DD able.

Dont be scared of mileage on these motors. I am spraying a 150 shot on my car and it has 162,000 miles on the original engine.

 

[Winters98GT]

I think you have your goals set a little to high. A stage 3 cylinder head is to much for that combo with a stock intake and cams.

I'm not trying to be a douche, but I would be surprised if that combo broke 300rwhp, and I mean very surpised.

+1
I couldn't agree more. I see no point in keeping stock PI cams NA if you are going for 325rwhp. You need aftermarket cams, and an intake will help, but not needed.

I don't see why you would pay more, to go slower.

I would suggest

1. Put a good set of cams in the car with stock heads and add a 100-150 shot.

2. Put a blower on the car and dust your current build.

Not trying to hijack your thread, but your build is really throwing money away for nothing, IMO.

 

[tank_567]

***So as the title states, I am thinking about building an N/A engine for my stang. I know FI makes more power, and have considered it quite a bit. However, I am not after monster power, just want a strong running reliable engine that meets my requirements. I know this is the more expensive route but I also want something different. Below is my build sheet, please let me know what you think, I have done quite a bit of research and could use some more good links/threads/builds.

Thanks!!


Block
5.0 Iron Big Bore

Heads
Either Foxlake/Livernois or Patriot Per Stage 3

Internals
Cobra Crank, Forged H Rods and Pistons to give me just under 10:1 CR

Cams
I am still researching, but prob stock cams, degreed or something similar to stock. I do not want any idle chop, they will not pass here if they have chop

Intake
Either Stock PI or HPS, I haven't decided yet

Exhaust
JBA shorty Ceramic headers, I know they do not provide much of a gain, but they are better then stock (proven, although small gain) plus they look better too. Long tubes repeat longtubes are not SMOG LEGAL so please don't suggest them.

Misc
70mm TB
C&L Plenum
Windage Tray
High Volume Oil Pump
24# injectors
Maganaflow X with Cali Cats


Goal
I want a solid engine that is DD capable and my goal is 325wrhp, anything more is just



Thanks for looking or helping me out. I plan to do some suspension work too and will due a full build thread if I go with this build.

http://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums/813965-tank_567-turbo-build.html

$4500 = made 521rwhp and when I DD the car (88miles a day for over a year) ran 10lbs of boost @ 400ishrwhp. Got 25mpg on the highway(when I kept off the gas....).

 

[1fun281]

With stock cams, 300 is a hard goal, Look in 98 cobra281's build he has a fully built 2v making 330 to the tire, with full ported heads, MHS cams, and a edelbrock intake, and why would do shorty's they are 0 horsepower on 4.6 liters, with stock cams and shorties id put money you wont make 300

 

[midnightdriver]

Thanks for the replies and I know the cams are holding me back quite a bit and talking to my engine builder today.

I forgot to make this clear, I do not drag race or ever intend to unless its just some fun with friends, I plan to Road Race this car soon, possible at HPDE events or SCCA track weekends. Plus, my friends and I go on drives on the local abandon country roads 60mph but its very hard to even do that, no straights longer then 300 yards. More for fun just having a good time and enjoy the scenery but I would be in boost with no break for 90 miles which I would blow up my engine.

Like I said, I don't want a ton of power, just more then stock and something reliable for Road Racing and lots of long spirited drives. Whats the point of 400wrhp+ if I can never use it.

Plus, I like N/A hope thats not a crime.

 

[40oz]

Just start with heads and cam on the stock block. If you get a new bottom end go with an aluminum block. The weight savings will pay off in improved handling more than an extra 20 horsepower would. A stock aluminum DOHC motor swap would be my choice - you get the AL block, four-valve heads, and a motor that is already close to your power goals without any mods. If you aren't going FI you don't need a custom-built engine. And if you go with four-valve heads, your power goals are easy.

 

[Kornnut]

I would just do the 4v swap said above.

 

[Green&GoldGT]

Honest opinion, go with the on3 turbo at 5psi, which is about 330rwhp. With the new coyote on the scene, all of our motors are old technology.

Think about it, if your engine builder has a hangover or builds your motor on a friday afternoon, your oil filter fails, or your fuel pump takes a crap, it could send your expensive big bore into the scrap.

Now on the other hand, a stock engine can handle 5 psi no problem. If it does fail, find another stock shortblock and your only out a few hundred bucks.

 

[midnightdriver]

Honest opinion, go with the on3 turbo at 5psi, which is about 330rwhp. With the new coyote on the scene, all of our motors are old technology.

Think about it, if your engine builder has a hangover or builds your motor on a friday afternoon, your oil filter fails, or your fuel pump takes a crap, it could send your expensive big bore into the scrap.

Now on the other hand, a stock engine can handle 5 psi no problem. If it does fail, find another stock shortblock and your only out a few hundred bucks.

No turbo's allowed in Cal on the street. Otherwise that would have been a great route to go. Any i have heard of people trying to sneak it but i really don't have the time to take the car apart if i get busted.

 

[midnightdriver]

Update

I talked to the guy that will prob build it and he is thinking of a stock bore aluminum block with a stroker kit in it topped with a nice set of head and cam combo. Then just run about 10:1 compression ratio with a good solid tune. He said the big bore are a pain because they come raw and have to be completely machined.

So if I do end up going this route, no more big bore just a stroker kit instead to give me some more displacement. And I will look into a 4v, always wanted one just have to check the engine swap rules in Ca. A stroker 4v would be pretty cool.

 

[40oz]

Sounds like you need to find a new engine builder.

A 4.6 doesn't need more stroke. Typically race engines start with a big bore and a much shorter stroke. The big bore enables large valves for high rpm breathing and the short stroke limits piston speed and the stress of the change of direction at each end of travel. Under-square, in the language of the science. What usually happens is a fantastic race motor designed within the regs of a series keeps the big bore but over the years gets additional stroke to increase performance to the point where it has the same bore and stroke - "square" in the terminology. At that point you come up with a new design to increase the bore and decrease stroke without losing displacement. Because bore allows big valves, and stroke limits rpms.

An engine with a longer stroke than bore is called "over-square," lowering the revs and making more torque but less high rpm horsepower. Ideal for a work truck. Or a tractor. The 5.4L is a classic example - makes plenty of torque but really struggles to beat the horsepower of a similarly modded 4.6 since the long stroke limits revs and the engine simply cannot fill the cylinders given the restrictions of the bore that limits valve size.

If you are looking for a high-revving, well-handling Mustang just ignore the fools who think increasing stroke is the solution for all engines. For the old 5.0 and LSx engines stroking is a good solution since those engines have a much bigger bore than stroke. For the 4.6, it's just dumb. Because the 4.6 has almost the same bore as stroke - it's already square.

All displacement isn't the same. What you want is the most valve area for the displacement. Increasing the stroke on a 4.6 might increase displacement but the engine is still working off the same valve area that makes 260 hp in a factory 4.6. You aren't going to make much more power just by increasing stroke, your rpm limit will decrease, and any modded factory 4.6 DOHC will make more power than stroking a 4.6 SOHC with everything you can throw at it.

An iron block big bore SOHC is a losing proposition because it is using a heavier block, so any power bump you might get is more than offset by the extra weight, and crippled by the two-valve heads.

A stroked 4.6 with DOHC heads is great for trucks but still suffers from the same valve area not being able to admit more air than the factory 4.6 DOHC, but a lower rpm limit.

That's why I suggested the factory aluminum DOHC block. You get 300+ hp without mods and less weight up front to boot. And anyone who has aspirations of a better handling car ought to bend over backwards to lose weight, especially weight up front. You'd get a 40+ hp bump with no stress the factory didn't already consider good for 100,000+ miles. You'd have a reliable, powerful, high-revving V8 in a lighter platform than any Cobra and a rear end anyone who drag races Cobras would buy out from under you. And you're going to use it for what the Mustang is designed for - roads with curves and hills and bumps, not a drag strip. The words "trouble-free" come to mind.

Don't waste your money on someone who thinks stroking a square-bore iron 4.6 SOHC is a solution. The only problem they are solving is too much money in your wallet. And NOBODY has that problem. It just smacks of barnyard tech without any of the sophistication of a backyard still.

 

[midnightdriver]

Sounds like you need to find a new engine builder.

A 4.6 doesn't need more stroke. Typically race engines start with a big bore and a much shorter stroke. The big bore enables large valves for high rpm breathing and the short stroke limits piston speed and the stress of the change of direction at each end of travel. Under-square, in the language of the science. What usually happens is a fantastic race motor designed within the regs of a series keeps the big bore but over the years gets additional stroke to increase performance to the point where it has the same bore and stroke - "square" in the terminology. At that point you come up with a new design to increase the bore and decrease stroke without losing displacement. Because bore allows big valves, and stroke limits rpms.

An engine with a longer stroke than bore is called "over-square," lowering the revs and making more torque but less high rpm horsepower. Ideal for a work truck. Or a tractor. The 5.4L is a classic example - makes plenty of torque but really struggles to beat the horsepower of a similarly modded 4.6 since the long stroke limits revs and the engine simply cannot fill the cylinders given the restrictions of the bore that limits valve size.

If you are looking for a high-revving, well-handling Mustang just ignore the fools who think increasing stroke is the solution for all engines. For the old 5.0 and LSx engines stroking is a good solution since those engines have a much bigger bore than stroke. For the 4.6, it's just dumb. Because the 4.6 has almost the same bore as stroke - it's already square.

All displacement isn't the same. What you want is the most valve area for the displacement. Increasing the stroke on a 4.6 might increase displacement but the engine is still working off the same valve area that makes 260 hp in a factory 4.6. You aren't going to make much more power just by increasing stroke, your rpm limit will decrease, and any modded factory 4.6 DOHC will make more power than stroking a 4.6 SOHC with everything you can throw at it.

An iron block big bore SOHC is a losing proposition because it is using a heavier block, so any power bump you might get is more than offset by the extra weight, and crippled by the two-valve heads.

A stroked 4.6 with DOHC heads is great for trucks but still suffers from the same valve area not being able to admit more air than the factory 4.6 DOHC, but a lower rpm limit.

That's why I suggested the factory aluminum DOHC block. You get 300+ hp without mods and less weight up front to boot. And anyone who has aspirations of a better handling car ought to bend over backwards to lose weight, especially weight up front. You'd get a 40+ hp bump with no stress the factory didn't already consider good for 100,000+ miles. You'd have a reliable, powerful, high-revving V8 in a lighter platform than any Cobra and a rear end anyone who drag races Cobras would buy out from under you. And you're going to use it for what the Mustang is designed for - roads with curves and hills and bumps, not a drag strip. The words "trouble-free" come to mind.

Don't waste your money on someone who thinks stroking a square-bore iron 4.6 SOHC is a solution. The only problem they are solving is too much money in your wallet. And NOBODY has that problem. It just smacks of barnyard tech without any of the sophistication of a backyard still.

+1, And I understand the whole large bore thing and this should go in a sticky somewhere, really good explanation that should be expanded on.


What he was saying was, of coarse a big bore is better then a stroker kit, hands down better. But the big bore engine is quite a feat compared to a simple stroker kit which will add some power but like posted, is not super efficient at doing so. My builder was simply try to offer a cheaper alternative, that would add some displacement, although not ideal (said so himself).

The DOHC thing is a good idea but...if I go that route I would prob just buy a 99 or 01 cobra that already has IRS or a Mach 1. I kinda like to stay with a 2v if i start with one.

That being said, I have come to a realization and crossroad. I might just add a super like everyone has said and be done with the engine or buy a C5 Z06

 

[Winters98GT]

That being said, I have come to a realization and crossroad. I might just add a super like everyone has said and be done with the engine or buy a C5 Z06

Even if you have driven a vette, there is nothing like a C5Z as far as a raw feeling sports car when you are behind the wheel. I would suggest you go drive one. It is much more enjoyable than a C4, base C5, C6 or C6z06 from purely a drivers point of view. I had driven a few vettes, and when I drove a C5Z, I was in love. Still my favorite car that I have ever owned.

The blower route is the best option in terms of keeping cost down. Simple, will make 350rwhp with ease, and should pass emmisions in Cali.

The problem with the NA route is that you are limited in how much power you can make in Cali due to emmisions laws, and it's going to cost a lot of money for what little power you gain. As mentioned, a direct 4v swap is a good idea.

 

[ItsStock02]

big bore/stroker
10.5 compression
decent set of ported heads and cams
intake of your choice

That should net you around 350whp

 

[N8Dogg98]

I realize I'm a little late to the party here, but if you really want to stay N/A and have some mild cams, then get that compression up to around 11:1. Flat top pistons combined with the TFS heads with the smaller CC should do the trick.

This brings me to my next question, why spend money on stage 3 PI heads, when the TFS heads can be purchased for the same price and have better valve placement? Ported TFS heads > ported PI head.

If you ran E85 with an 11:1 combo, I'm sure you'd be damn happy with the N/A performance and you'd realize some savings at the gas pump d/t the increase in compression combined with less expensive fuel.

If, however, you don't want to run at least 10.5:1 compression, then just supercharge the damn thing. Like others have said a supercharged car with STOCK cams and STOCK heads has the potential to outperform any N/A 4.6 SOHC combo in a much more driveable package.

 

[midnightdriver]

Even if you have driven a vette, there is nothing like a C5Z as far as a raw feeling sports car when you are behind the wheel. I would suggest you go drive one. It is much more enjoyable than a C4, base C5, C6 or C6z06 from purely a drivers point of view. I had driven a few vettes, and when I drove a C5Z, I was in love. Still my favorite car that I have ever owned.

The blower route is the best option in terms of keeping cost down. Simple, will make 350rwhp with ease, and should pass emmisions in Cali.

The problem with the NA route is that you are limited in how much power you can make in Cali due to emmisions laws, and it's going to cost a lot of money for what little power you gain. As mentioned, a direct 4v swap is a good idea.

I have driven a C6Z but not a C5Z, but i have heard the C5Z is something totally different like you said. I have had my eye on one for awhile now, just kinda love my little 2v. Plus for the C5Z, STS twin turbo kit is Cali smog legal, along with your A&A kit or Magnacharger. CA seems to like GM better .


I'll PM you if I decided to go the Vett route, hopefully everyone won't hate me here. But I am still thinking about keeping the stang with boost too, so not all is lost yet.


I emailed my engine builder back and he hasn't emailed me back yet about why he suggested the stroker kit. Did some more research and it seems that almost every Rep company offers one so 40z, they can't really be all that bad. If MMR, Lethal, Livernois, DSS etc all offer them.


But, If i do build up my car i will definitely have a build thread.