P.I. Intake opinion

[mr. jones1]

you are entitle to your opinion.
The plates I use are 1/8" thick so the total lift of the manifold is 0.373 measured. Now subtract the standard gasket and you have a 1/4" lift at the injector. Much less that the other plates.
If the plates seal with out RTV (and they do) whey install a manifold without them. They do blend the ports better than without them. I only go involved with making them because I did not want to pay $650 for the kit and I did not want to take any risk with leaks. I spent alot of time making sure the water port matching would seal to both gaskets.

If your budget can't handle the cost of my plates you probably should not be modifiing the car in the first place.

Just my opinion

 

[TGJ]

you are entitle to your opinion.
The plates I use are 1/8" thick so the total lift of the manifold is 0.373 measured. Now subtract the standard gasket and you have a 1/4" lift at the injector. Much less that the other plates.
If the plates seal with out RTV (and they do) whey install a manifold without them. They do blend the ports better than without them. I only go involved with making them because I did not want to pay $650 for the kit and I did not want to take any risk with leaks. I spent alot of time making sure the water port matching would seal to both gaskets.

If your budget can't handle the cost of my plates you probably should not be modifiing the car in the first place.

Just my opinion

We are going to have to agree to disagree! Buying these plates is a waste of money IMO and I said why. I would rather put the money on a mod that is going to do something for you. Using these plates requires a new tune as well because of the fuel issue, a new tune is not required if you use the gasket/RTV method.

If you use the PI intake gaskets, you will not get a vacuum leak at the head/intake and likely won't get a coolant leak either as the gasket covers all of the opening but the little blue lip is on the edge of the head opening on the coolant port of the NPI/SVO head, a little RTV behind this part will guarantee no coolant leaks. I will reinforce this tomorrow with the pics of the SVO head and PI intake gasket.

I would rather take a very very small chance of a coolant leak than run the car lean.

 

[mr. jones1]

yes the PI gasket will seal the intake ports I was not happy with the water jackets.
You still are over looking the advantage of blending the port. I rather have 3/8" of port transition than a blunt head surface for the interface on the outside edge of the ports. We go thru the trouble or porting heads and manifold etc to pick up ever little bit of power we can. why over look this advantage here. You said yourself that you have seen a slight improvement with other plates on the dyno over gaskets only.

I had my car dynoed, a custom chip burned by the tuner and the initial fuel to air ratio was 11-1 that is rich not lean. the present ratio is 13-1. This was one of my concerns- the last thing I wanted to do was run the engine lean and damage it. That turned out not to be an issue.
Like I said before my setup only moves the injector 1/4" from their original location.
The other plates out there move them 1/2" that might be an issue.
I'm not forcing anyone to do a swap one way or the other. I wanted a cheaper way to upgrade the manifold. I designed the port cutouts on a CAD file, I compensated for port matching and sealing. After my success with the plates I made 25 sets thats it. I thought others might want to take the same route.
My setup put me on par with a 260hp car with just manifold (255hp), plates and a catted x-pipe. Note that my torque actually came out higher 311ftlb
thru 3.90 gears which will show lower numbers than 3.27 on the dyno.
Not bad for the money

 

[TGJ]

yes the PI gasket will seal the intake ports I was not happy with the water jackets.
You still are over looking the advantage of blending the port. I rather have 3/8" of port transition than a blunt head surface for the interface on the outside edge of the ports. We go thru the trouble or porting heads and manifold etc to pick up ever little bit of power we can. why over look this advantage here. You said yourself that you have seen a slight improvement with other plates on the dyno over gaskets only.

I had my car dynoed, a custom chip burned by the tuner and the initial fuel to air ratio was 11-1 that is rich not lean. the present ratio is 13-1. This was one of my concerns- the last thing I wanted to do was run the engine lean and damage it. That turned out not to be an issue.
Like I said before my setup only moves the injector 1/4" from their original location.
The other plates out there move them 1/2" that might be an issue.
I'm not forcing anyone to do a swap one way or the other. I wanted a cheaper way to upgrade the manifold. I designed the port cutouts on a CAD file, I compensated for port matching and sealing. After my success with the plates I made 25 sets thats it. I thought others might want to take the same route.
My setup put me on par with a 260hp car with just manifold (255hp), plates and a catted x-pipe. Note that my torque actually came out higher 311ftlb
thru 3.90 gears which will show lower numbers than 3.27 on the dyno.
Not bad for the money

Please do not put words into my mouth. What I had said is the plates are in the upper middle of the dyno graphs I have seen and ON PAR with what cars made with the gasket/RTV method in the same area of the country. They didn't make more, about the same.

Next I agree with you that blending the two ports is better than not, however raising the fuel injectors to do so is not a good idea and so far has not shown to make more power. I am taking it that your car was rich before the PI swap as that is what you stated earlier?

I have said what I think is the best method and I don't care how people go out and do this. If they want to use the plates, go right ahead. I just think it is a bad idea and shared why. That is what this thread asked for was opinions.

Anyway, here is the pics of the SVO head with the PI gasket:

The head and gasket!
Pic 1

My thumb points out the problem area using PI Gaskets!
Pic 2

A close up pic of the problem area.
Pic 3

Closer.
Pic 4

Up Close and personal. As you can see in the bend that blue is on the edge of coolant port on the head.
Pic 6

The rear coolant ports seal fine.
Pic 5

 

[98GTVortech]

Please do not put words into my mouth. What I had said is the plates are in the upper middle of the dyno graphs I have seen and ON PAR with what cars made with the gasket/RTV method in the same area of the country. They didn't make more, about the same.

Next I agree with you that blending the two ports is better than not, however raising the fuel injectors to do so is not a good idea and so far has not shown to make more power. I am taking it that your car was rich before the PI swap as that is what you stated earlier?

I have said what I think is the best method and I don't care how people go out and do this. If they want to use the plates, go right ahead. I just think it is a bad idea and shared why. That is what this thread asked for was opinions.

Anyway, here is the pics of the SVO head with the PI gasket:

The head and gasket!
Pic 1

My thumb points out the problem area using PI Gaskets!
Pic 2

A close up pic of the problem area.
Pic 3

Closer.
Pic 4

Up Close and personal. As you can see in the bend that blue is on the edge of coolant port on the head.
Pic 6

The rear coolant ports seal fine.
Pic 5[/QUOT

MMFF May 2005 just came out with an article about just doing the PI intake swap and they used the plates. I understand where you are coming from but i would rather use the plates just for my own comfort. Great pictures BTW.

 

[mr. jones1]

The 11-1 ratio (rich) was after the plates and manifold, this was my first dyno run. I had no base dyno without plates and manifold. The 13-1 ratio was the final run after a custom burn.
I have seen people quote only 7hp improvement for a swap with Livernois plates. That tells me that there were other problems with there car or tuner.

My setup started as a stock motor and catted x-pipe only. The end result was 255 fwhp and 311fwtq I find that hard to argue with. These are great results when done right. It also raise the peak hp to 4800rpm (up 400) more power under the usable curve.

I noticed that you have your heads on a bench. The best approach for you would be to have the water jacket tig welded to fill in the gap. scribe the gasket outline and cut the port to match. Not something I would do on the car but no problem with the heads off.
This would not hurt the port and create a good combination.

 

[mexis97gt]

so other then the adapter plates or rtv do you need anything else for the swap or is that .

 

[TGJ]

so other then the adapter plates or rtv do you need anything else for the swap or is that .

You need the PI coolant tube that fits in the valley, PI O-ring for the water pump, Alternator bracket and you need to address that a PI intake has one coolant sensor, NPI cars used two. You might need some extra coolant hose. I can't remember the size of hose you might need. The other thing is I recommend a PI intake with the aluminum crossover as you can easily drill and tap the crossover for the extra sensor.

 

[Gearbanger 101]

I wanted the plates since my manifold is pressurized by the Vortech. Didn't want to blow a hole in the RTV if the gap was too large.

Exactly....this is the only exception and it's what most people are overlooking, and as such the reason I think he'll be just fine with the RTV alone. Many have used this method on N/A applications and even a few forced induction cars and I don’t know of any that have had issues with failure. There is no reason it would pose any more danger on a nitrous car, than it would a N/A car. What many don’t realize (and I’m surprised that nobody caught this) is that you're not increasing the positive pressure inside the intake manifold hardly at all with the use of nitrous. The pressure increase accompanied by spraying nitrous, takes place after the event, inside the combustion chamber between the cylinder head and the piston, not within the intake itself. It's only when going with forced induction like stated above that atmospheric pressures increase within the intake manifold to the point where it may creating possible sealing issues.

 

[COramprat]

My plates from mr jones1 arrived today. They look to be made pretty well, and as stated in the description, you can see the hand blending but I feel much better bolting down my intake to something that resembles a better flow pattern than just RTVing it in place. Just my opinion. I'm going to dyno my car with the old intake and then the new to see differences so I will post up when I have the results. Hopefully Mustang Tuning gets my intake here next week. They are on back order. Another note is I bought some Comp XE262H cams and I'll get before and after results for those too.

 

[TGJ]

Exactly....this is the only exception and it's what most people are overlooking, and as such the reason I think he'll be just fine with the RTV alone. Many have used this method on N/A applications and even a few forced induction cars and I don’t know of any that have had issues with failure. There is no reason it would pose any more danger on a nitrous car, than it would a N/A car. What many don’t realize (and I’m surprised that nobody caught this) is that you're not increasing the positive pressure inside the intake manifold hardly at all with the use of nitrous. The pressure increase accompanied by spraying nitrous, takes place after the event, inside the combustion chamber between the cylinder head and the piston, not within the intake itself. It's only when going with forced induction like stated above that atmospheric pressures increase within the intake manifold to the point where it may creating possible sealing issues.

I agree with what you said about the Nitrous. Nitrous setup properly is a non-issue with the intake. If however the a nitrous car backfires, it doesn't matter what plastice intake or gasket you are using, you could blow out the intake.

If you are using a SC, use the PI gaskets, you will not blow out the RTV as a SC does not add more pressure to the coolant.

 

[mr. jones1]

If your car has the aluminum crossover just swap crossovers. The sensor goes with it. You only have to drill and tap if you have the plastic crossover.
The alt. bracket that is on the original setup works, you don't need a new one. check my site instructions they shows the crossover swap.

 

[dcarlson]

Why would I stay away from the adapter plates with a SC? Because using the plates will cause the car to go lean and you could lose your motor.

Lifting the injectors 1/8 inch or so (with the plates) might alter the spray pattern enough to cause a slight loss in part throttle fuel economy, but it won't cause the car to go lean at wide open throttle. The same amount of fuel is still going in the intake to mix with the air. How is putting that fuel in even 3/8 inch farther up the intake going to make it run lean? The fuel still goes in the engine.

 

[mr. jones1]

I would think that the closer to the original location the better.
If you've noticed that the spray pattern washes the cyl. head at the stock location. This is not optimal but thats how Ford did it. This can cause some puddling.
My gas mileage is 17 city it was 18 city before manifold/plates, not uncommon with a performance improvement that moves the hp curve up the rpm scale.
Even the tuner expected the car to be lean before tuning but that was not the case.

 

[stonegod85]

let's resurrect this thread and see which way i should go...seeing as how mr.jones1 doesn't seem to have these plates anymore, but livernoise or whatever they are called does but wants to charge $300 for them (which is double what they sale there pi intake for btw)....so after this time of rest for the thread has anyone else done the RTV method and how hard is it to do?

I Think Mr.Jones1 should start making some more of these and he could make some nice mulah...i know i would probly buy them just for the peace of mind vs. doing the RTV and hoping i did it right.

 

[Joel's98GT]

If I would have just done the intake, I would have went with the intake and adapter plates from Livernois, they are a little pricey, but I'm thinking the cost of them wouldn't be much more than the tow truck bill if the RTV let go.

on an intake on an N/A car the sealant is under vacuum the sealant holding back the pressure of your cooling system and crank case is monsterous compared to an intake.

I did the PI intake and cam swaps, i used the non-pi intake and RTV'ed the ports, no issues after 20,000 miles.

Mr. jones, if you were around at the time i did this i would be tempted to purchase a pair if they were $50-$100 or if i were running a supercharger in the future.

 

[CanadaStang]

I did the PI intake and cam swaps, i used the non-pi intake and RTV'ed the ports, no issues after 20,000 miles.

Thanks Joel, that's good to know

 

[mr. jones1]

Hello gents
as you can see the forum auto updates the signature, I am running a vortech now on the PI manifold with my plates with no problems at all. When I started I had no intention of running a blower but a used one came up on e-bay and so be it.
If you want to go without a plate you should only use PI gaskets and a high temp sealer rated for water pump gasket uses. You must clean the RTV area (front water port and head surface) and get the water port area dry to make a good seal. Be patient and allow cure time for the RTV. many have done this with success.

Those plates/kits by Livernois are just to much money for me to justify this mod. I would think the price is fare based on the work required to fab them but is $650 worth 15-20hp. Note that you will still need tuning to see that upper HP gain so add another $500 to the cost. I had the ability to draw, fab my plate design for the price of gaskets and about a week of work and a favor from a water jet operator. I then followed up with the cost of professional tuning. I also eliminated hood clearance and hardware issues with my design.

Joel's98GT- do I understand this correct that you used non-pi gaskets and a PI manifold? This would not be a good setup. The water port match is good but all air/vacuum ports are off. (this interrupts air flow).

 

[AUTOBAHN]

I got a set of your plates and they are great. Couldn't be happier!!!!!!!!
MIKE

 

[mr. jones1]

Thanks autobahn (mike), Its great to make a cheaper (and better) product and sell it to other enthusiasts.