87 5.0 wont start

hello to all,

I have an 87 5.0 convert, this has Trick flow upgrades E303 cam 24 lb injectors ect. I bouth this car 1 week ago I have had 7 in total 5.0 foxes over my years so I am pretty good with them. Here is what I am facing it was running great then it did the im getting hot and want to shut down till it cools down again then runs great again. So I was originaly thinking fuel pump so I dropped the tank but then I remebered I had one long ago that did the same thing that I just sold cause I was unable to figure it out. Thats not going to happen this time . I have am 89 GT as well I have changed the coils, TFI module, Fuel pump relay my car still wont start. I have swapped all back to my wifes 89 GT and hers starts right up? So this is what I am thinking PIP in the dizzy? Maybe the FPR? I have not checked the eec or computer yet or the FPR or the PIP. I checked the inertia sensor its fine? Any help would be great. I guess my question is it showed signs of it being the TFI but I was wrong in my diagnossis if the PIP goes out will it cause the no start ? I dont like the idea of messing with the dizzy by taking it out ect. Am I on the right track? This car ran for 2 hours with no issues in the guys drive way before I bought it and drove fine for 3 days no issues. I never even got on it hard just drove it normal to and from work. Thanks guys
 
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Randomly throwing parts at it is not the answer. Start with the very basic stuff first to see where you need to look. You need three basic things to make fire: Air, fuel and spark. Pull a plug and turn the car over. Are you getting fire at the plug? Yes? Move on to fuel. No? Pull off the coil wire, ground it to a safe place and turn the car over again. Sparks? Yes? Look at the distributor and TFI module. No? Move back up the line. If you have spark, check to see if the injectors are firing and that the fuel pump is running. You can literally hear the injectors click and you can hear the fuel pump prime when you turn on the key. Yes? Check the fuel pressure. You might have a bad fuel pressure regulator. No? Possible bad pump. Possible bad pump relay.

Bottom line: Do some basic diagnosis before you start throwing parts at the problem. A 5.0 Mustang is one of the most basic mechanical entities around. It ain't rocket science.
 
thanks for the reply, the relay to the pump works I have 2 5.0's I have changed them out. The TFI is good on both cars have swapped them out. The coil is good as well swapped them out so far I have not thrown any $$$$$ just parts off the 89 GT. I guess I still didnt get the answer to my question I have spark yes, I have fuel yes. If the PIP is no good at all will it not allow the car to start at all? I am thinking of changing this to see. I have read many posts that indiacte my issue may be the PIP but I dont know if the PIP flat out is junk? if it wont allow the car to run? The other thing is a FPR I mean thats again not a big deal either I have fuel to the rail the relay to the fuel pump is clicking. The car wont start at all I dont know if the injectors are firing I do not have the noid light.
 
thanks so one question about swapping the PIP? What do you think is the best thing to do change the whole dizzy or get the PIP and have it installed in my current dizzy? I have the E303 cam I dont want to mess up anything inside if I get the wrong gear on a new dizzy? So new PIP in my dizzy or new dizzy in all?
 
Using the search feature would have unearthed this gem...


Cranks OK, but No Start Checklist for Fuel Injected Mustangs

A word about this checklist before you start: it is arranged in a specific order to put the most likely failure items first. That will save you time, energy and money. Start at the top of the list and work your way down. Jumping around will possibly cause you to miss just what you need to see to find and fix the problem. Don’t skip any steps because the next step depends on the last step working correctly.


Revised 16-Jan-2011 to clarify testing the EEC relay in paragraph 1E .

All text applies to all models unless stated otherwise.

Note: 94-95 specific changes are in red

1.) Remove push on connector (small red/blue wire) from starter solenoid and turn ignition switch to the Run position. Place car in neutral or Park and set the parking brake. Remove the coil wire from distributor & and hold it 3/8” away from the engine block. Jumper the screw to the big bolt on the starter solenoid that has the battery wire connected to it. You should get a nice fat blue spark.
Most of the items are electrical in nature, so a test light, or even better, a voltmeter, is helpful to be sure they have power to them.

No spark, possible failed items in order of their probability:
A.) MSD or Crane ignition box if so equipped
B.) PIP sensor in distributor. The PIP sensor supplies the timing pulse to trigger the TFI and injectors. A failing PIP sensor will sometimes let the engine start if the SPOUT is removed. See paragraph 5A – Using a noid light will tell if the PIP is working by flashing when the engine is cranking.
C.) TFI module: use a test light to check the TFI module. Place one lead of the test light on the red/green wire on the ignition coil connector and the other lead on the dark green/yellow wire on the ignition coil connector. If the TFI is working properly, the test light will flash when the engine is cranked using the ignition switch.
D.) Coil
E.) No EEC or computer power - EEC or computer relay failure
86-93 models only: EEC relay next to computer - look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires.
94-95 models only: EEC or PCM power relay in the constant control relay module. Look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires.
Both 86-93 and 94-95 models: No 12 volts with the ignition switch in the run position on the fuel injector red wires. The relay has failed or there is no power coming from the ignition switch. Make sure that there is 12 volts on the red/green wire on the coil before replacing the relay.
F.) No EEC or computer power - fuse or fuse link failure
86-93 models only: Fuse links in wiring harness - look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires. All the fuse links live in a bundle up near the starter solenoid. Look for a 20 gauge blue fuse link connected to 2 black/orange 14 gauge wires.
94-95 models only: 20 amp EEC fuse in the engine compartment fuse box. Look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires.
G.) Ignition switch - look for 12 volts at the ignition coil red/lt green wire. No 12 volts, blown fuse link or faulty ignition switch. Remove the plastic from around the ignition switch and look for 12 volts on the red/green wire on the ignition switch with it in the Run position. No 12 volts and the ignition switch is faulty. If 12 volts is present in the Run position at the ignition switch but not at the coil, then the fuse or fuse link is blown.
Note: fuses or fuse links blow for a reason. Don’t replace either a fuse or fuse link with one with a larger rating than stock. Doing so invites an electrical fire.
Ignition fuse links may be replaced with an inline fuse holder and 5 amp fuse for troubleshooting purposes.
94-95 models only: Check inside fuse panel for fuse #18 blown – 20 amp fuse
H.) Missing or loose computer power ground. The computer has its own dedicated power ground that comes off the ground pigtail on the battery ground wire. Due to it's proximity to the battery, it may become corroded by acid fumes from the battery.
In 86-90 model cars, it is a black cylinder about 2 1/2" long by 1" diameter with a black/lt green wire.
In 91-95 model cars it is a black cylinder about 2 1/2" long by 1" diameter with a black/white wire.
You'll find it up next to the starter solenoid where the wire goes into the wiring harness
I.) Computer.
J.) Bad or missing secondary power ground. It is located between the back of the intake manifold and the driver's side firewall. It supplies ground for the alternator, A/C compressor clutch and other electrical accessories such as the gauges.
K.) Engine fires briefly, but dies immediately when the key is released to the Run position. Crank the engine & when it fires off, pull the small push on connector (red wire) off the starter relay (Looks like it is stuck on a screw). Hold the switch in the crank position: if it continues to run there is a problem with either the ignition switch or TFI module. Check for 12 volts at the red/green wire on the coil with the switch in the Run position. Good 12 volts, then replace the TFI. No 12 volts, replace the ignition switch.

Wiring Diagrams:

See the following website for some help from Tmoss (diagram designer) & Stang&2Birds (website host) for help on 88-95 wiring Mustang FAQ - Engine Information Everyone should bookmark this site.

Ignition switch wiring
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/IgnitionSwitchWiring.gif

Fuel, alternator, A/C and ignition wiring
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/fuel-alt-links-ign-ac.gif

Complete computer, actuator & sensor wiring diagram for 88-91 Mass Air Mustangs
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/88-91_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif

Complete computer, actuator & sensor wiring diagram for 91-93 Mass Air Mustangs
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/91-93_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif

Complete computer, actuator & sensor wiring diagram for 94-95 Mass Air Mustangs
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/94-95_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif


AutoZone wiring diagrams: You can navigate to the diagrams yourself via Repair Info | AutoZone.com and select the car year, make, model and engine. That will enable you to bring up the wiring diagram for your particular car.

2.) Spark at coil wire, pull #1 plug wire off at the spark plug and check to see spark. No spark, possible failed items in order of their probability: [/b]
A.) Moisture inside distributor – remove cap, dry off & spray with WD40
B.) Distributor cap
C.) Rotor
D.) Spark Plug wires
E.) Coil weak or intermittent - you should see 3/8" fat blue spark with a good coil

3.) Spark at spark plug, but no start.
Next, get a can of starting fluid (ether) from your local auto parts store: costs a $1.30 or so. Then pull the air duct off at the throttle body elbow, open the throttle, and spray the ether in it. Reconnect the air duct and try to start the car. Do not try to start the car without reconnecting the air duct.

Two reasons:
1.) If it backfires, the chance for a serious fire is increased.
2.) On Mass Air cars, the computer needs to measure the MAF flow once the engine starts.
If it starts then, you have a fuel management issue. Continue the checklist with emphasis of fuel related items that follow. If it doesn’t, then it is a computer or timing issue: see Step 4.

Clue – listen for the fuel pump to prime when you first turn the ignition switch on. It should run for 5-20 seconds and shut off. To trick the fuel pump into running, find the EEC test connector and jump the connector in the Upper RH corner to ground. The EEC connector is near the wiper motor and LH hood hinge.
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If the relay & inertia switch are OK, you will have power to the pump. Check fuel pressure – remove the cap from the Schrader valve behind the alternator and depress the core. Fuel should squirt out, catch it in a rag. Beware of fire hazard when you do this. In a pinch, you can use a tire pressure gauge to measure the fuel pressure. It may not be completely accurate, but you will have some clue as to how much pressure you have. If you have any doubts about having sufficient fuel flow/pressure, rent a fuel pressure test gauge from the auto parts store. That will tell you for sure if you have adequate fuel pressure.


4.) No fuel pressure, possible failed items in order of their probability:
A.) Tripped inertia switch – Coupe & hatch cars hide it under the plastic trim covering the driver's side taillight. Use the voltmeter or test light to make sure you have power to both sides of the switch
B.) Fuel pump power relay – located under the driver’s seat in most stangs built before 92. On 92 and later model cars it is located below the Mass Air Flow meter. Look for 12 volts at the Pink/Black wire on the fuel pump relay.
C.) Clogged fuel filter
D.) Failed fuel pump
E.) 86-90 models only: Blown fuse link in wiring harness. Look for 12 volts at the Orange/Lt Blue wire on the fuel pump relay.
91-93 models only Blown fuse link in wiring harness. Look for 12 volts at the Pink/Black wire on the fuel pump relay.
The fuse links for all model years 86-93 live in the wiring harness near the starter solenoid.
94-95 models only: 20 amp fuel pump fuse in the engine compartment fuse box. Look for 12 volts at the Dark green/yellow wire on the constant control relay module.
F.) Engine seem to load up on fuel and may have black smoke at the tailpipe. Fuel pressure regulator failed. Remove the vacuum line from the regulator and inspect for fuel escaping while the pump is running. If fuel is coming out the vacuum port, the regulator has failed. Check the regulator vacuum line for fuel too. Disconnect it from the engine and blow air though it. If you find gas, the regulator has failed.

5.) Fuel pressure OK, the injectors are not firing.
A.) The PIP sensor in the distributor tells the computer when to fire the injectors. A failing PIP sensor will sometimes let the engine start if the SPOUT is removed.
A noid light available from any auto parts store, is one way to test the injector circuit to see if the injectors are firing. The noid light plugs into the fuel injector harness in place of any easily accessible injector. Plug it in and try to start the engine: it will flash if the injector is firing.
B.) I like to use an old injector with compressed air applied to the injector where the fuel rail would normally connect. I hook the whole thing up, apply compressed air to the injector and stick it in a paper cup of soapy water. When the engine cranks with the ignition switch on, if the injector fires, it makes bubbles. Cheap if you have the stuff laying around, and works good too.
D.) Pull an injector wire connector off and look for 12 volts on the red wire when the ignition switch is on.
E.) No power, then look for problems with the 10 pin connecter (salt & pepper shakers at the rear of the upper manifold).
See the graphic for the 10 pin connector circuit layout.
harness02.gif

The injector power pin is the VPWR pin in the black 10 pin connector.

F.) No power and the 10 pin connections are good: look for broken wiring between the orange/black wire on the EEC relay and the red wire for the 10 pin connectors.
G.) TPS voltage exceeds 3.7 volts with the throttle closed. This will shut off the injectors, since the computer uses this strategy to clear a flooded engine. Use a DVM, a pair of safety pins, and probe the black/white and green wires to measure the TPS voltage.
On a 94-95 Mustang, probe the black/white and grey/white wires to measure the TPS voltage.
It should be .5-.1.0 volts with the key on, engine not running. Note that if the black/white wire (signal ground) has a bad connection, you will get some strange readings. Make a second measurement using the battery post as the ground to eliminate any ground problems. If the readings are different by more than 5%, you may have a high resistance condition in the black/white signal ground circuit.

6.) Spark & fuel pressure OK.
A.) Failed IAB or improperly set base idle (no airflow to start engine). Press the throttle ¼ way down and try to start the car. See the "Surging Idle Checklist for help with all your idle/stall problems.
B.) Failed computer (not very likely)
C.) Engine ignition or cam timing off: only likely if the engine has been worked on recently. If you removed the distributor, there is a good probability that you installed it 180 degrees out of time.
D.) Firing order off: HO & 351 use a different firing order from the non HO engines.
HO & 351W 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8
Non HO 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
E.) No start when hot - Press the throttle to the floor & try starting it if you get this far. If it starts, replace the ECT.
F. ) Engine that has had the heads off or valves adjusted. Do a compression test to make sure the valves are not adjusted too tight. You should have a minimum of 90 PSI on a co
 
ok so i got it to fire up and run just for a few, i used starting fluid and fired right up so is this the eec telling the dizzy or injectors to not work? PIP still maybe the issue? I have a new fuel pump going to install that in the morning so I will have solved the fuel issue might as well put one in while the tank is down. I guess it still can be a FPR as well? I am very happy to know I heard it run again for just a sec any way. If anyone has any thought thats great!!! BTW thanks for all the help from all.
 
Try actually doing the diagnostic steps in the checklist. Get a Noid light from the auto parts store ($12-$20 at Advance Auto Parts), some fresh batteries for you voltmeter and start testing. We are not there to see and hear what happening. You are...
 
wow thanks for the help!!!!! We all learn by trial and error. I joined this forum to get some help from the wiser. I have done plenty diagnostic work I have eliminated many things by going by the check list so thanks very much for this list it is a great list. My simple question if the PIP is bad will it not tell the eec to fire the injectors? I bypassed the injectors with starting fluid and I got it to run so I have fire right? But the electronics and relays tell the ecm and eec to do certain things a certian times. I can change the PIP and the eec relay no big deal its just a question? I will buy the noid light and the obd1 scanner as I will need these any way I know these cars are very tricky and have lots of issues I have had many of them over the years, but when they run good its great. So thanks for all the help!!!! Have a great day.
 
The PIP sensor can fail and cause the TFI to fire the ignition coil, but not trigger the computers to fire the injectors. That's where the Noid tester comes in. If the noid tester flashes, the injector power and ground signals are OK. That means the PIP is OK.

If the Noid does not flash check the injector 12 volts (red wire on any injector) - no 12 volts and the ECC relay, ignition switch or fuse link is bad.

If the Noid does not flash and the injector 12 volts is good, the computer or PIP is at fault.
 
Dude, you have another RUNNING 5.0 sitting there, yank the dizzy out of it and stab it into the car in question and see what happens. It takes literally 5 minutes to swap them out.

To make it easier on yourself, turn each car over till the rotors are pointing at the "1" so this way you can reinstall the dizzy in the same place. Usually though, you can put your fingers on an injector while someone is cranking the motor and feel if they are pulsing or not. I know on 94/95 cars the PIP sensor is a common problem, but of all the Foxes I've ever owned I never once had to change a PIP sensor, only the stupid TFI modules! Used to keep one in my glove box with the tools to change it out roadside if need be!!!
 
Thanks I will try that I have replaced the fuel pump, the fuel pump relay, the eec relay on the passenger side of the car by the ecm, the coil, the tfi module. still no start. Either pip? I have fuel to the rails I am going to get the noid tester today for the injectors. Can a FPR still be an issue? Also while doing all of the work today I found a relay under the mas air flow neck by like the old breather box would have been it was mounted to the inner fender. This relay is fried all the wires are melted, broken, cracked ect I unplugged the relay and the inside is full of build up as well. I cut it off im going to have to replace some of the line as well it was all taped up by someone else. So I did a little ready on this is this the second fuel pump relay or is this the ac relay? Any help is great. Thanks
 
so today i went and got the noid light but for some reason it will not plug in to my injector harness? The light kit I got from autozone is says ford tbi but the prongs are way to wide to plug in the injector? any ideas why? My wife has an 89 5.0 with an aod her injectors are orange im guessing stock mine are blue I was told they are 24 lb? not sure of brand or manufacture? so the noid test didnt happen at all. I did get new plugs and wires installed today but again nothing new still wont start. I am still needidng to know what the relay is that I found under the breather box area on the passenger side on the wheel well is? The relay is fried and so is the wire so far I have had no luck at any auto parts store at all finding it. I bought a haynes book and im pretty sure it says it is the wot ac relay the colors on the harness are red, orange & light blue, pink & light blue, black & Yellow. I see this exact wire to a relay in the book as well it says wot/ac then it alson says to eec??? Can this be my issue? I am going to try and find this at the ford dealership the auto parts guys have no idea what it is at all? Any suggestions? Also I was going to swap out the dizzy from my wifes 5.0 but i did some reading on here and I think she has stock everything so her dizzy gear is the cast? I have the E303 cam so thats steel and I need a steel gear right? so due to not knowing im not going to swap just yet. All of the auto parts around me do not have a dizzy with a steel gear all are the cast iorn which makes sence cause most are stock. I want to see if the PIP is my issue thats why I tried the noid mentioned above but no luck on that either any one have any other ideas? Also I changed the eec relay by the ecm under the dash way up at the top mounted to the a pillar this sometimes can cause these issues I changed it as well?????? I guess im at a loss at this point the check lists are great I have tried lots of things but have no results. Thanks any info will be great.
 
On an 87 Mustang, the relay by the airbox is the A/C compressor WOT shutoff. It has nothing to do with your current problem. The fuel pump relay is under the driver's seat.

Take the noid light set back and ask to see one of every other set they have in stock.
 
ok THANK YOU for both of questions!!!!!! So it got dark I went out had my wife turn the car over I have no spark from coil to dizzy or dizzy to any plugs?

Also I think I may have found another issue?????

While changing the eec relay by the computer I noticed that I have a single solid GREEN wire loose from the computer pin harness???? So I have been doing some research on this as well now. I have the 60 pin wire harness with the 3 rows of pins. I took a pen and paper and wrote down all the missing pins with no wires in the harness hoping I can find the diagram for the 87 5.0 convert and cross reference them and find what pin this GREEN wire goes to but so far no luck at all. Also I now know my computer is the C3W1 and I believe this is out of an 93 AOD???? I know my car is MAF swapped as well. I have a T-5 in mine I did see that the C3W1 is ok to work with a T-5 I belive
???? I guess any more insight will be great...... So if I have no spark to I swapp the dizzy to rule out the PIP???? Or is this GREEN loose wire maybe my issue???? gotta love these damn cars to go thru all of this right????????????
Any way another full day down the drain and still I have no running mustang!!! Thank You for the help
 
Man, this is getting very frustrating. You keep asking the same questions and we keep telling you the same answers. If you'd have simply swapped in your wife's dizzy when I told you to you could have ruled that out a while ago.

When you say wire is loose from the pin connector, does that green wire have a pin on it? A very quick search netted me this little gem: http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/88-91eecPinout.gif

It says 88-91 so there may be a slight difference when it comes to the mass air and non mass air workings, but it should be the same for the most part, at least to let you know what your mysterious green wire goes to.