Dealerships

[5spd GT]

I had a situation like this come up not to long ago.

My "future" mother-in-law has an extra car (1996 Ford Taurus SHO) that was wrecked. It caused some issues afterwards. She took it to a local dealership at Little Rock not to long ago.

After waiting 4 hours in the waiting room she got a bill for over $2,000.

The charges were (going off memory):

- OBDII Reading - $75
- OBDII Reading - $75 (emissions)
- IRMC Replacement - $600-$800 (?)
- A/C Cycle Switch Replacement- $200
- Throttle Body Replacement - $600
- Air Bag Module Replacement - $250
- Camshaft Sensor Replacement - $220

There was some other random prices added on as well.

I knew this was ridiculous.

I went to Advance Auto Parts and got the exact same codes read for free:

DTC P0430, DTC P1000, DTC P1469, DTC P1519.

I purchased an A/C cycling switch for $15 and a camshaft position sensor from another Ford Dealership for $20.

I replaced both of them within 5 minutes. So for 5 minutes of work, I could have made $400. Plus, with the 4 hours they spent with the car they should have seen that the camshaft position sensor was just unplugged!

She told the Ford service guys that the throttle body was sticking. They said that they had to replace the throttle body ($600). With a can of carb cleaner I cleaned off the gunk from it. It worked as good as new. Again, I could have made $600, but it was done for free.

The airbag module was just a fuse that needed to be replaced.

The IRMC (Intake Runner Manifold Control Valve) actually was broke, after I opened it up, but they made it appear like it was going to be a hard swap with the crazy cost. I wired it open and unplugged it. It runs great. It initially was not opening up all the way under WOT, which created the code.

So the new breakdown of the bill is:

- OBDII Reading - FREE
- OBDII Reading - FREE
- IRMC Replacement - Broke (but "fixed")
- A/C Cycle Switch Replacement- $15
- Throttle Body Replacement - FREE
- Air Bag Module Replacement - Price of a Fuse
- Camshaft Sensor Replacement - $20 (Technically free - plugged in)

Even more recently, I was working on a Nissan Altima today (L31 - 2.5L) that needed the crankshaft position sensor replaced. I asked the local Nissan dealership how much they charge per hour and they said $84.24 an hour, IIRC. It was going to cost ~ $200 to replace.

Just two simple steps to fix it:

- Remove air intake tubing and pcv hose
- Remove engine cover and locate the sensor and replace

Took all of 15 minutes and I am no Master Tech or ASE certified.

Also, I have seen a $600 fee for a check-up (change oil, plugs, fuel filter, power steering fluid, etc.) and $2000 to convert a later 80's truck to R134a, etc, etc.

What gives with the crazy prices and taking advantage of people?

I do realize that not all dealerships treat people like this, but at $84.24 x 40 hours a week x 52 weeks, that is $175,219 bucks.

Anyone got more dealership issues like this?

 

[Fett]

A few things that may help answer your questions.

1) A dealership is only going to use OE parts. In the case of a Ford dealership, Ford/Motorcraft. In the case of a SHO, those parts are insanely expensive due to limited supply, as most of the items for that car are obsolete. A cycling switch that may cost $15 from AutoZone may be $45 for the Motorcraft switch.

2) 4 hours may seem like a long time to wait, but I would honestly doubt that someone was diag-ing the car for 4 hours. Most likely it took at least an hour before the car even ended up in someones stall. We always assume that as soon as we hand over the keys, someone takes the car into a stall with a tech waiting. Sometimes that happens, but more likely than not, it went into a holding pen until a tech was free and was dispatched the job, then they went to go get the car.

3) The labor time is typically dictated by an outside source, usually All Data. A tech will diag the car, get parts prices from the parts dept, then go look up the labor time in All Data. In a lot of cases the tech will add time, in rare cases a tech will deduct time....it all depends on the job.

4) The labor rate is usually based on other dealerships in the area, typically every dealership in the area will charge the same labor rate. The labor rate does NOT go to the tech working on the car. The dealership labor rate is in the 80-90 range today, but the average tech makes in the 20s....$22-$25 an hour. Not all techs are paid 40 hours a week, they get what work they get and that's it. Most dealerships do not have salary techs. They have an hourly rate, and they are paid ONLY on the hours they pull. From a techs stand point, the 2 hour job that actually only takes them 20 minutes to do makes up for the .5 hour job that actually takes them 2 hours. Also from their standpoint, they shouldn't be penalized for being able to do a job quickly. For instance you said it took you 15 minutes to do a job that they charged 2 hours for. That sounds excessive...but if you were a tech living on what you made, and you pulled a job that said it pays 2 hours, would you only charge the customer 3 tenths of an hour because you can do it faster than the books say? If you did, you would starve. Also the labor rate at a dealership is always going to be much higher than an independent shop because they have a much larger overhead. When you are running 30 bays your bills are going to be much higher than the small shop running 3 bays and 2 techs.

Understand, I am NOT standing up for the dealership....because it seems like you got a stupid tech. If he said she needed an airbag module when in fact it was a blown fuse....there is no excuse. The tech simply rushed the diag. He tried to communicate with the module, got no communication and immediately assumed the module was bad, instead of making 100% sure it wasn't something else. Test wires and look at fuses.

The throttle body issue seems like a simple case of the tech trying to get extra work. Replacing the throttle body WOULD have fixed the problem....but as you found out, so will cleaning it out.

Like any job on the planet, there are good ones and there are bad ones. I know techs that I wouldn't let look at my car....literally, I won't let them set their eyes a gaze on it. There are other techs I trust 100%.

The unfortunate part is that like most other things, nobody ever talks about the good experiences. Nobody ever talks about the time a local mom-and-pop garage told someone their tranny was shot because the car would stall out and would jerk badly into gear...only to bring it to a dealership and the tech tops off the tranny with fluid, charges them $10 for fluid and .5 hours of labor and it fixes the problem.

Like I said, I don't want to stand up for dealerships as there ARE bad ones out there filled with horrible techs. You were looking for insight, I just figured I could shed some light on a few of the issues you had.

Better luck next time.

 

[5spd GT]

You took my post wrong.

I know the "tech" does not get the pay...lol. I have a couple friends that do it.

I bought the camshaft sensor (MOTORCRAFT) for $20 from a FORD DEALERSHIP. They were wanting an extra $200 for a 2 minute job (if that), removing one bolt that is in front of your face.

The wait time of 4 hours and then a ~ $2,200 bill is crazy, for something that was only $40 to fix it.

I believe the cycling switch was $20 if I recall.

 

[Fett]

Oh, I wasn't trying to be specific, I was generalizing.

 

[Mustang5L5]

That is why i don't take my car to a dealer.

 

[justabigkid]

I work at a dealer also and I totaly agree that there are great techs and those that should be doing something else for a living.
Just keep in mind that even though you may be taking your car to an independent shop it may still be ending up at the dealer without you knowing and they are just passing the fees onto you. We see about 3 or 4 cars a day from other shops that could not or cant fix a car because they dont have the proper equipment or just gave up. You have to keep in mind that on a new dodge charger/magnum/300 etc.. you cant even check the trans fluid w/o a special tool.

We love the local pep boys they will just throw parts at a car and when they cant fix them just bring it to us.

I also love the shops that call us to see what common parts may be causing a specific problem on a car and than determine what the problem is only by our diagnosis over the phone or by which part we have more of in stock.

 

[RycheGT]

On what Fett said. I have a friend who is a tech at a GM dealership. He does a lot of work on their vans. The book calls for 4 hrs labor on a tranny swap. Hes done so many he can do this job in 45 minutes. Thats out, replaced, and running in less than a hr. What do you think he turns time in for? Because they dont get paid from the time they clock in to the time they leave. They got to eat too.

When our old Caravan lost all its instruments we took it to an independent shop. the owner was former Dodge tech. He still ended up bringing in a friend who still worked for Dodge to use a "special" scan tool only they can get. He ended up having to replace the dash wiring due to 2 wires rubbing off their insulation and shorting everything out. $1300 job.... ouch

 

[glowstang93]

The dealership usually has the highest labor rate and yes they go from a book rate. The parts are Motorcraft and usually are more expensive than from the local parts store. I am lucky enough to have a good shop in my town that treats me fairly and usually has no problem fixing the things that pop up that I can't figure out on my own or with the help of others on StangNet.

Not everyone can fix the obvious and the not so obvious without taking it to a shop or a dealership though. My Mother that lives 2 hrs away takes her Buick to the local dealership for oil changes, then they tell her about anything they see needs fixed or serviced. She then takes it to a local shop that she trusts and treats her fairly to have them do the repairs cheaper.

You wouldn't believe what they were going to charge her to change a license plate light at the dealership. I think it was like $25.00 A local shop wouldn't do that to an old lady

 

[Fett]

My folks live out of state, a few weeks ago my Dad calls me and asks me what he thinks might be the problem with his Eclipse. He tells me that sometimes when he steps on the gas, the RPMs climb but it feels like the car is not in gear. I ask the standard questions, he tells me it shifts fine, doesn't grind or pop out of gear. So I tell him he needs a new clutch. I went ahead and called the local Mitsu dealer in his area and talked to a service adviser. He gives me the labor rate and tells me they go by All Data time. So I look up the times, do the math, and tell my Dad roughly what it should cost him...it was around $700. He tells me he is going to stop by and talk to the same guy and have them "check it out". I told him to NOT have them "check it out"...just to tell the guy he wants a new clutch..as there is no sense in paying a diag fee for something we already KNOW.

The next week he calls me back to tell me he brought it to that dealership and they pissed him off. He said he asked them how much it would cost to have them "look at the car and find out what he needs". They gave him a diag charge so he leaves it there. They pissed him off because they called him a few hours later and told him he needs a new clutch, and his motor mounts are shot. All told they quote him $1100 for the new clutch and two motor mounts. He was angry because they tried to sell him extra stuff.....so he paid the diag charge and picked his car up.

The next day he brought it to a local independent shop that he trusts....which I told him NOT to do. He said they called him a few hours after he dropped it off and told him that his motor mounts are shot, but because they had to drop the cradle to change the clutch they wouldn't charge him any more labor to change the mounts.

He was VERY happy when he picked his car back up from them because he never realized the car had a vibration before, but he could tell now because the car was so much smoother than before...and the clutch felt great. All in all, the independent shop only charged him $1100 for the whole job. He was very proud of himself.

Yes....you read it right. The dealership that was going to use OE parts and have a Mitsu trained tech do the labor, wanted to "rip him off" by charging him the same exact amount of money as the independent shop did...and we don't know if they even used OE parts.

 

[glowstang93]

I know this is derailing the thread, but I'll keep it short.

When we were kids we didn't always listen to our parents when they knew what was best.

Now that we are adults, our parents don't listen to us when we know whats best.