EFI swap info

[turtle99]

I know there is a plethora of info out there on doing these swaps. I currently have a 289 in my 67 Cougar and I may want to swap to EFI in the nest year or so. I know that the firing order of a 5.0 HO is the same as that of a 351W. My question (or maybe looking for conformation) is that if I swap in a 351W cam into my 289, will I be able to use the "stock" harness and retain the proper idle qualities that I would need.

Thanks,

Jason

 

[JamesW]

www.midnightdsigns.com/james

 

[Tubo(2-bo)]

The short answer is yes. Now go to the links on JamesW's site & learn why.

 

[ForceFed70]

If your firing order is different, all you should need to do is change your spark plug wires around. No?

 

[turtle99]

Thanks for the link to the site, very informative. My plan is going to b e to use my existing 289, swap in a 351w cam, and use the 5.0 stuff for the fuel injection. Does this sound like it will work ? I will probably start collecting parts and asking more questions next fall as this will likely be a winter project.

Thanks

Jason

 

[CochinoFilipino]

Article with 5.0 EFI installed on 289: http://www.mustangsplus.com/tech/efi/index.html

 

[Tubo(2-bo)]

If your firing order is different, all you should need to do is change your spark plug wires around. No?

The EFI(351 firing order cam) changes which cylinder is pulling in fuel & would need altered spark AND fuel delivery. The question was centered around "batch" fuel delivery or individual port delivery. Correctly timed Port delivery will give the best performance and idle.

 

[ForceFed70]

The EFI(351 firing order cam) changes which cylinder is pulling in fuel & would need altered spark AND fuel delivery. The question was centered around "batch" fuel delivery or individual port delivery. Correctly timed Port delivery will give the best performance and idle.

I understand this.. BUT, I fail to see what this has to do with the Ford EECIV ECU. This ECU does not use a crank position sensor and has no idea what the valve timing is. Thus it does not time the fuel injection events to correspond with valve timing events. This ECU also requires the use of a distributor...meaning it also doesn't know which cylinder is being fired when a spark event occurs.

 

[Tubo(2-bo)]

The 289 uses a different cam and valve opening pattern, than the 351 pattern. The ECCIV fuel injector firing is timed to feed the cylinder that has the intake valve open for that cycle. The spark is Then sent to the cylinder that has been charged with fuel & is on the compression stroke.
The initial question was about fuel distribution. Change 289 cam to 351 firing order. The spark if changed, with out a matching cylinder feed change would do no good. Yes the ECCIV does know what the firing order is and uses that order, its called Sequential injection. Batch injection, what GM uses, doesnt worry about cylinder firing order.
So Yes, after the cam is changed, you would then change the distributor firing order too.

 

[turtle99]

So......if I am reading this correctly, changing the timing to that of the 351 would do exactly what I was looking for, change the spark and fuel delivery to match it up correctly with what the EEC-IV is "thinking", it needs. I looked at the article on the mustangs plus swap and they even state and the end of the article that the idle is rough because the firing order is off. If I am going to go through the process of swapping to EFI, I want it running silky smooth. I have also looked at an article where they swapped around which injector wire goes where to try and "trick" the computer as to which cylinder is firing but I have heard some people (those who don't make any money by you oing this BTW) that doesn't work either. Just some more food for thought.

Thanks again,

Jason

 

[ForceFed70]

The 289 uses a different cam and valve opening pattern, than the 351 pattern. The ECCIV fuel injector firing is timed to feed the cylinder that has the intake valve open for that cycle. The spark is Then sent to the cylinder that has been charged with fuel & is on the compression stroke.
The initial question was about fuel distribution. Change 289 cam to 351 firing order. The spark if changed, with out a matching cylinder feed change would do no good. Yes the ECCIV does know what the firing order is and uses that order, its called Sequential injection. Batch injection, what GM uses, doesnt worry about cylinder firing order.
So Yes, after the cam is changed, you would then change the distributor firing order too.

Thanks, I'm well aware of the differences between sequential injection and batch injection.

Just changing the spark plug wires around will work. It may not be perfect, but it has been done many times before and does work. You may suffer some slight idle problems, but once you get into the pedal it won't make any difference (This has to do with the injector duty cycle as I'm sure you know).

 

[CraigMBA]

The short answer - yes, the 351w cam will fix the problem. But what IS the problem?

I was around when Mustangs Plus did the swap with the 289 they have on thier site. The car would start fine, but after a little while, would start to "hunt" at idle to the point where it was zinging up and down roughly 800 rpm. After you put the car under power, it smoothed right out. At the time they summised it was a problem with the fan wash screwing with the MAF meter. Problem is, at idle, the EEC-4 computer ignores the MAF meter at idle (no load). So what is the real problem?

The EEC-4 computer knows how long it takes to shoot an injector and have that pass the O2 sensor. It is "looking" for that data. Thus, if you screw with the computer and reorder the injector and spark firing order to work on the wrong cam, the computer gets confused and starts making changes to compensate for something that mechanically is perfectly ok, but nobody bothered to recode the computer. This same problem can happen when you use long tube headers for the same reason - the computer is looking for that signal, and you've just moved it back however many miliseconds and not told the computer.

Ron Morris did the swap for Mustangs Plus, and says esentially the same thing I wrote on his site. He should know, he's taken all the Ford schools for that stuff and learned from the best.

Apparently you can fix this with the Tweecer programing, but if you just change the cam...........................it's not a problem.

You needed new lifters and to change the front crank seal anyway.

 

[ForceFed70]

Cool. Thanks for the info.

 

[turtle99]

Well.........I was going to be changing out the cam anyways and if I am going to be doing all this work at the same time would it not be easier to change out to a cam that the computer wil recognize. I also think I might use the stock 5.0 manifolds as they are already set up with the O2 sensor bungs etc. I have a set of long tube headers. What I really want is a nice engine that is reliable and makes decent power. If this problem can be fixed by using the twEECer programming I would definitely be looking at that as well. Would definitely be worth lookig at the cost and benefits. I have the cam I would like to use for my 289 already bought and sitting on the shelf. I would like to use it if possible, but if it comes down to considerably more than buying a 351W cam I would rather go with the cam, as I will be in there anyways to do just that.

I will definitely look into the twEECer have heard about, but right now I am in the very preliminary stages of research. I am also interested in using a stock harness and modifying it myself if I can. I will have to keep costs down as much as possible when (or IF) I do the swap.

Thanks again,

Jason

 

[1965stangcoupe]

www.midnightdsigns.com/james

I love your site! its really helpful!!

 

[JamesW]

Thanks...

If anyone sees something that needs improving/clarification, etc... shoot me an email.

 

[turtle99]

So far this has been very informative and I HAVE done some searching but I do have yet another question. I will now have to source the parts for this conversion. I know that 89-93 mustangs have the 5.0HO with mass air but what other cars had this set-up, as I know trying to find a Mustang to snag parts off of will be difficult and expensive. It looks like I have a couple of options:

1. Lincoln MK VII (but what years ??)
2. 91-93 T-bird or Cougar

Are there any other vehicles with both the HO and the mass air. I definitely want to go mass air as it looks like I would have to convert later anyways.

Thanks again

Jason

 

[turtle99]

Well.......

First off I am going to bump my own thread. Secondly thanks for all the info. I have also done searching.......and more searching on the net. I have managed to find enough info to either get started or get myself in really deep trouble (whichever comes first) I think I will definitely do this swap when I have the engine apart next fall as I have planned. Being that this car does not get driven for a little less then half the year I will have the time to do the swap. I have found

www.fordfuelinjection.com

is the best site for getting info. I will be using my original 289 as I am on a budget, which also means I will have to modify my own harness, and I am definitely swapping to a 351W cam to keep the computer happy. I have decided that I will definitely use the mass-air system as I have aluminum heads and I will have a slightly bigger than stock cam. I have a pretty extensive list of needed parts, most of which I think I can source locally over the summer and the rest will have to be Ebay or some other internet source. I think I may also do a write-up with some pics if it works out as well. I think I can do the whole swap for about $1500 if it all goes according to plan, but we shall see. I definitely want the car running again next spring so I will have kick my own butt to keep it on schedule.

Thanks again