Let's get a discussion on what is a better means to show potential: Dyno or Track?
- Thread starter 5spd GT
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darthcual
Member
Thats why they are there. Can you imagine trying to set A/F ratios and timing with only a track to work with? So many variables it would be impossible to determine. Having said that, i'm not a dyno man myself. Run what you brung.
If that is what you think, no one is going to cause you to think otherwise. You know that you are not going to change your mind and you will just keep on debating, you made this thread just to stir siht up.
Look it's Aaron - No need for that response. I'm aware you don't like me. No need to repeat, unless you want to of course
I was trying to prove a point...it appears it is going in that direction. Feel free to express your opinion and prove whichever side wrong
This is an open forum...but atleast attribute to the debate for either one side or both.
I was trying to prove a point...it appears it is going in that direction. Feel free to express your opinion and prove whichever side wrong
This is an open forum...but atleast attribute to the debate for either one side or both.
5spd GT said:I'm aware you don't like me. No need to repeat, unless you want to of course
View attachment 497862 I have nothing against you...
Michael Yount
Mustang Master
You still haven't answered the one simple question I've asked 5 spd -- how much road racing experience do you have to base your 'there must be more variables' thought on?
Your original premise was basically track or dyno -- you don't have to try and optimize your use of the track (that is try to turn the best lap or run time) in order to use the track to monitor the effect of changes. The key to using the track is to alter how you drive to eliminate variables. It can be done and is regularly done at both the strip and the road course. Most all of the variables can be minimized by the driver to the point that meaningful data is obtained. They can also be minimized for the dyno runs -- however, that's not in the complete control of the driver. You have to 'trust' a BUNCH of stuff from the dyno operator. And my experience has been that many times -- they either don't want you to know, or they simply just don't know enough themselves about how the system even works to help you with that. When something as simple as strap down technique and tension can result in a 15HP difference -- well, that's a problem....
By the way - the Mustang Dyno's are eddy current -- tell 'em what number you want, and they can get it for you. Over and over again. If that's what you mean by repeatable and consistent -- go for it.
5spd - tell us all about your road racing experience. What kind of car? What sanctioning body? How many seasons have you raced? Did you build/tune the car yourself? What were your results like? What driving schools did you go to? We need that information to put your comments about the variables present in that kind of racing in perspective. I suspect the reason you can't believe I'm debating it with you is because you have no experience road racing. Am I wrong?
Your original premise was basically track or dyno -- you don't have to try and optimize your use of the track (that is try to turn the best lap or run time) in order to use the track to monitor the effect of changes. The key to using the track is to alter how you drive to eliminate variables. It can be done and is regularly done at both the strip and the road course. Most all of the variables can be minimized by the driver to the point that meaningful data is obtained. They can also be minimized for the dyno runs -- however, that's not in the complete control of the driver. You have to 'trust' a BUNCH of stuff from the dyno operator. And my experience has been that many times -- they either don't want you to know, or they simply just don't know enough themselves about how the system even works to help you with that. When something as simple as strap down technique and tension can result in a 15HP difference -- well, that's a problem....
By the way - the Mustang Dyno's are eddy current -- tell 'em what number you want, and they can get it for you. Over and over again. If that's what you mean by repeatable and consistent -- go for it.
5spd - tell us all about your road racing experience. What kind of car? What sanctioning body? How many seasons have you raced? Did you build/tune the car yourself? What were your results like? What driving schools did you go to? We need that information to put your comments about the variables present in that kind of racing in perspective. I suspect the reason you can't believe I'm debating it with you is because you have no experience road racing. Am I wrong?
Woodrow
Founding Member
The track can be just as good as the dyno for the avg. joe if you take down the weather conditions so you can calculate the corrected altitude ect.
Also the trap speed is the avg of the last 66ft (I forget), so your 60’s and et maight be off but the mph should be about the same for most of the runs. For instance everyone talks about fast cars that are slow take a Z06 for instance most with a marginal driver runs 12.50’s to 12.80’s ok but if you look at their trap speed its all around 111-114 indicating thru the use of a ¼ to hp cal that you are indeed making about the said 400 at the crank. Combine that with your corrected altitude number and compare the results. Its cheeper and more fun than your beloved dyno.
Also the trap speed is the avg of the last 66ft (I forget), so your 60’s and et maight be off but the mph should be about the same for most of the runs. For instance everyone talks about fast cars that are slow take a Z06 for instance most with a marginal driver runs 12.50’s to 12.80’s ok but if you look at their trap speed its all around 111-114 indicating thru the use of a ¼ to hp cal that you are indeed making about the said 400 at the crank. Combine that with your corrected altitude number and compare the results. Its cheeper and more fun than your beloved dyno.
Michael Yount
Mustang Master
darthcual
Member
No matter what actual(base line) number the dyno post if it be 200rwhp or 500rwhp. If you put bolt ons on the car you will receive a different number whether it be lower or higher. I think thats the point 5spd is trying to make. I understand that racers of all breed go to the track to tune the car to get optimum performance but for a guy like me, I simply dont have the time and could never get enough passes in. Thats why they make dyno's. Its a tool, like any other. Yeah I've seen a dyno tell an s10 chevy it was making 700 horses but we all know that is invalid. If the person using the dyno knows what they are doing, you can get realistic numbers. Set it up on the dyno, fine tune it at the track. Dyno will only get you so far though, The car is meant to be driven down the road.
Michael Yount
Mustang Master
One variable we haven't talked about is automatic trannies. The majority of cars sold have them -- and the majority of serious drag racers run them. They give dynos fits for repeatablity - especially with the loose converters that most drag racers use. I've seen a number of back to back pulls - same car/no changes between pulls - with pretty signficant differences both in the peak numbers and in the curve. Track's probably gonna work better for you in that situation -- and the auto tranny usually allows for more consistency/less driver variability at the track. Which is of course why so many people use them.
On the original topic, the track tells the whole truth. The timeslip can be anaylzed to see if there was driver error.
The track should be the bragging rights, for either a quick ET or a high MPH.
Not the dyno, they are too inconsistant, and should be used for tuning purposes not to show up one of your buddies or come here and tell us how fast your car should be.
The track should be the bragging rights, for either a quick ET or a high MPH.
Not the dyno, they are too inconsistant, and should be used for tuning purposes not to show up one of your buddies or come here and tell us how fast your car should be.
Michael Yount said:
Even a specatator can see more variables involved in drag racing compared to auto-x. The auto-x has much more that can effect lap time. I'm still stunned.
Michael Yount said:
I never said you had to run your best at the track to see a gain. Never. The track easily has more variables that can turn in a negative route. Dyno ='s put car in 4th (manual t5) make a low-high rpm pull by just stabbing the gas. No shifting. Track ='s shifting at different points (how can you shift at the same rpm exactly and same time.) How can you engage/disengage the clutch at the same speed? How can you make track 'stickiness' the same? How can you make head wind the same when the track is one big one way street
Etc...etc...Other than that they have the same...Michael Yount said:
Cool, but that isn't what I mean and you know it:Word:
Michael Yount said:
Lol...
The sweet smell of nostalgia...
Woodrow said:
What about track prep, shifting at the same rpm (exactly), shifting the same speed, engaging/disengaging the clutch the same, headwind, etc...the dyno doesn't have to deal with those.
Woodrow said:
Yep, the mph should be "about" the same. You said it yourself
They can be thrown off greatly depending on how bad the mistake is in that 60ft.Actually most zo6's run 12.3-12.5's with good drivers and trap 117mph or so. Your numbers are bit low. I have always been the one to emphasize track mph...and not E.T. I'm very aware of that.
Beloved dyno?
I simply said, if you were to add a horsepower producing mod...what has less variables to deal with so you can see a more accurate gain? The dyno or track?
Beloved? Funny, that is what my name means
Michael Yount said:
Lol...bad try. The loose converters show up at the track as well Mr. Yount
Yeah they provide more consistency...but that is for bracket racing as well and has nothing to do with their "inconsistency" at the dyno. But they don't get "loose" at the track? Okay your arguments are starting to crumble...
2000xp8 said:
Right but the dyno shows the power output.
I never said this is used as bragging rights. Lol...to much twisting going on here.
Again (how many times...lol) if you were to add a power giving mod what would have less variables to deal with (consistent)? Dyno or track?
Woodrow
Founding Member
5spd GT said:What about track prep, shifting at the same rpm (exactly), shifting the same speed, engaging/disengaging the clutch the same, headwind, etc...the dyno doesn't have to deal with those.
Yep, the mph should be "about" the same. You said it yourself
Actually most zo6's run 12.3-12.5's with good drivers and trap 117mph or so. Your numbers are bit low. I have always been the one to emphasize track mph...and not E.T. I'm very aware of that.
Beloved dyno?
I simply said, if you were to add a horsepower producing mod...what has less variables to deal with so you can see a more accurate gain? The dyno or track?
Beloved? Funny, that is what my name means
If you ***** up bad enough to throw the mph off by more than 3 you will know you messed up. I don’t see people only making 1 dyno pull normally they make three. The same should go with testing at the track. The only thing that might significantly affect the mph in the factors aforementioned is the headwind. Track prep and were you shift ect is not going to effect it more than 3 mph. That is if you shift and leave in your realitivly normal way. Like xp8 said if you know what you are looking at on the slip you can tell if there is driver error ect. The only thing a dyno is good for is tuning.
If you really think you are right go to the track take a vid of 3 of your runs, write down all the weather conditions, then go to the dyno the same day. If i cant predict what your hp is with in 15 (allowing for dyno varibility) I'll pay for the track and the dyno.
Or wait a week or so and I will do it with mine (hopefully if its running by then)
Michael Yount
Mustang Master
Try again 5spd -- auto tranny drag cars with loose converters are EXTREMELY consistant at the strip clicking off very close times/mph over and over. That's why the majority of cars that are only drag raced run auto trannies -- they're more consistent than most drivers can be with a manual tranny. If you don't think they are, then clearly you've not spent much time at the drag strip - even as a spectator. Notwithstanding their amazing consistency at the track - the numbers they lay down at the dyno are frequently VERY inconsistent. So -- please explain that to us 5spd. I'm sure you've 'watched' enough racing to have an answer that is at least entertaining for us.
I'm very patient tonight - I'll try once more. Tell us about all the road racing experience you have that has allowed you to draw all your learned conclusions about consistency, repeatability and testing at the road course. Or are you claiming internet expertise in road racing because you've watched some on TV? If you haven't had any actual experience doing it - perhaps you've crewed for someone that has -- helped with set up or pit stops for a road racing car; is that where the expertise came from? Maybe you could at least tell us what road racing you watch on TV so we could all be 'experts' too!
I'm very patient tonight - I'll try once more. Tell us about all the road racing experience you have that has allowed you to draw all your learned conclusions about consistency, repeatability and testing at the road course. Or are you claiming internet expertise in road racing because you've watched some on TV? If you haven't had any actual experience doing it - perhaps you've crewed for someone that has -- helped with set up or pit stops for a road racing car; is that where the expertise came from? Maybe you could at least tell us what road racing you watch on TV so we could all be 'experts' too!
