Let's get a discussion on what is a better means to show potential: Dyno or Track?

[25thmustang]

Dynos and tracks tell DIFFERENT stories...

Dyno will tell if power was added, and if so where and how much... Thats all a dyno tells...

The track wont tell you how much power was added, but can tell you where (top end or bottem end) and whether or not it was...

A dyno ONLY talks about power numbers and whether they go up or down, a track tells the whole story, if the mods were worth it, if the car ran better or worse, if for some reason because of the mod you have to revamp your driving style (in cases of big power adders mostly)!

I know what your looking for 5-speed, you want us to say, yes the dyno shows if a mod adds power, better than a track does, and yes this is true, as a track doesnt flat out tell you a mod added power...

But if you want people to agree its going to be tough, even though I see what your trying to say, its going to be read as a track vs dyno comparison, and I doubt you will get manu people supporting a dyno over the track!

A dyno is one way to tune a car, other than that it really means nothing, as there are tons of variables to how a car performs, other than horsepower (and thats where the track comes into play)!

 

[Look Its Aaron]

We have had our disagreements in the past...I've seen it carried over

I dont even remember..

 

[86_stang]

I agree dyno is for tuning and what else you shouls or could do to make more hp/ and torque. But the drag strip os showing basically what your car can really do with that power it. But i have never had my car dynoed yet why cause I dont need to I have a rough idea of what hp I am running, but until i get my blower I am not doing it cause it cost too much money to do a dyno everytime you add something to your car. I rather pay 10 bucks and go to the track and beat a z06.




QUOTE=Grn92LX]Dyno's are a tool for tuning, dialing in your a/f/timing curve and figuring out shift points. Not all dyno's read the same, some higher and some lower. They do give you an idea what the car could run but they don't take weight, driver, proper gearing and traction into consideration.

The track is just flat out fun and cheaper If a driver is on point and consistent they can tell easily if a mod/change helped or hurt their performance.[/QUOTE]

 

[jwzg]

The whole reason I said what I did earlier was that this thread seemed to be more about post whoring and penis length rather than getting an actual discussion going. I guess the discussion has begun in earnest, so I can finally chat away...

That being said, a chassis dyno may or may not give you a bit of info about whether your engine is making more power or not, but potential (I assume you are referring to e.t. and trap speeds by this nebulous term) has as much to do with driver, suspension, tires, weight, weight distribution, track/road surface conditions, ambient temperature, engine temperature, altitude, air pressure... Do you really want me to keep listing all of the variables? A chassis dyno basically filters the power through the drivetrain and only removes precious few of these variables from the the total equation. Put to the track, a car's suspension may not be able to cope with the extra power and hop the axle or just spin. A CAI may show a large power gain with the hood up, parked on a dyno and be an absolute waste of money when the hood is down because it becomes an HAI. If the measurement is wrong because it's not taken under track conditions, or the countless variables are are not optimal (RARELY [i.e. never] are they), then you will NEVER know the potential.

I'll try to let more uuhhh....experienced people address the rest. (I hear ya, Yount!) I'm out.

 

[5spd GT]

If you ***** up bad enough to throw the mph off by more than 3 you will know you messed up. I don’t see people only making 1 dyno pull normally they make three. The same should go with testing at the track. The only thing that might significantly affect the mph in the factors aforementioned is the headwind. Track prep and were you shift ect is not going to effect it more than 3 mph. That is if you shift and leave in your realitivly normal way. Like xp8 said if you know what you are looking at on the slip you can tell if there is driver error ect. The only thing a dyno is good for is tuning.

Drivers mess up all the time at the track...but how can the driver at a dyno mess up

If you really think you are right go to the track take a vid of 3 of your runs, write down all the weather conditions, then go to the dyno the same day. If i cant predict what your hp is with in 15 (allowing for dyno varibility) I'll pay for the track and the dyno.

That is tempting, I know I could do it. Guarantee it 15 is even better for me...I was trying to make it a smaller gap. I've got some things I got to take care of first (oil leak, replace header/hpipe, port lower, etc). I'll be done in about a month.

Or wait a week or so and I will do it with mine (hopefully if its running by then)

Will see how good of a guesser you are with your own car.

 

[5spd GT]

Try again 5spd -- auto tranny drag cars with loose converters are EXTREMELY consistant at the strip clicking off very close times/mph over and over. That's why the majority of cars that are only drag raced run auto trannies -- they're more consistent than most drivers can be with a manual tranny. If you don't think they are, then clearly you've not spent much time at the drag strip - even as a spectator. Notwithstanding their amazing consistency at the track - the numbers they lay down at the dyno are frequently VERY inconsistent. So -- please explain that to us 5spd. I'm sure you've 'watched' enough racing to have an answer that is at least entertaining for us.

Lol, I said they were consistent. What are you trying to say? You said loose convertors are inconsisten at the dyno and yet consistent at the track. That doesn't make any sense. They both are applying power down. Why would the car (power wise) act different at the dyno than it would at the track. Does it turn on it's "extra loose" mode at the dyno?

Watch drag racing, I don't just watch, I run I have a drawer full of timesslips...in fact we are going this weekend (some buddies). I won't be running my car (slipping clutch) but will be running two friends cars. Maybe 3.

Entertaining enough?

I'm very patient tonight - I'll try once more. Tell us about all the road racing experience you have that has allowed you to draw all your learned conclusions about consistency, repeatability and testing at the road course. Or are you claiming internet expertise in road racing because you've watched some on TV? If you haven't had any actual experience doing it - perhaps you've crewed for someone that has -- helped with set up or pit stops for a road racing car; is that where the expertise came from? Maybe you could at least tell us what road racing you watch on TV so we could all be 'experts' too!

Patience is good...

Lol...

 

[5spd GT]

Dynos and tracks tell DIFFERENT stories...

Dyno will tell if power was added, and if so where and how much... Thats all a dyno tells...

The track wont tell you how much power was added, but can tell you where (top end or bottem end) and whether or not it was...

A dyno ONLY talks about power numbers and whether they go up or down, a track tells the whole story, if the mods were worth it, if the car ran better or worse, if for some reason because of the mod you have to revamp your driving style (in cases of big power adders mostly)!

I know what your looking for 5-speed, you want us to say, yes the dyno shows if a mod adds power, better than a track does, and yes this is true, as a track doesnt flat out tell you a mod added power...

But if you want people to agree its going to be tough, even though I see what your trying to say, its going to be read as a track vs dyno comparison, and I doubt you will get manu people supporting a dyno over the track!

A dyno is one way to tune a car, other than that it really means nothing, as there are tons of variables to how a car performs, other than horsepower (and thats where the track comes into play)!

That is what I believe as well for the most part. Like you said I was talking about something else and it got turned into a direct contest between them which was not intended. I mean the "modification for horsepower". They dyno would show you where you gain the power as well.

I simply am saying, for the fact of less variables to control, the dyno is superior in that.

Oh and thanks for the 1/8th mile mph's you gave earlier...nice mph.

 

[Dark Knight]

Drivers mess up all the time at the track...but how can the driver at a dyno mess up

Driver may not, but the operator can... wrong altitude correction, car strapped down to tight or to loose.. etc

 

[thumper460]

I didnt read the entire thread.. so this must have been already stated??

DYNO vs TRACK ? why did we build in the first place?? Numbers?? or Performance??
NUMBERS: Yeah, I have 185 CC runners, and flow at 375CFM @ 750 lift, Secret "Custom cam" and 55 lb injecters!! Dyno 450 Ft lbs @ 4500 and 550 HP @ 6500 ! Oh yeah, the car is trick custom red paint and I have never been to the track...

Performance? Yeah.. it runs 11.90s on the motor, 1.62 60 fts and 114 mph!!

The differance IMO is that taking to the dyno, alows you to "Tune" and change ... SOOoooo... when your at the track, you can feel good about the numbers and NOT have to have all the joy of running and tuning, then running again!! Tweaking is the name for the fastest car!! Engine and Suspension!! and the track IS the place for the true performance of the car!! the Dyno is just for tuning !! It will show the numbers.. for braging rights.. but NOT the performance of the car!!

Come on guys... how many guys in your neighbor hood Brag 400 RWHP + and WONT RACE your 265 RWHP stang?? It isnt the numbers in a two car race...... IS IT ??!!

Just going to the dyno... ?? It doesnt show "potential for anything!!"

Just me............................

Thumper

 

[5spd GT]

The whole reason I said what I did earlier was that this thread seemed to be more about post whoring and penis length rather than getting an actual discussion going. I guess the discussion has begun in earnest, so I can finally chat away...

Opinions all count...

That being said, a chassis dyno may or may not give you a bit of info about whether your engine is making more power or not, but potential (I assume you are referring to e.t. and trap speeds by this nebulous term) has as much to do with driver, suspension, tires, weight, weight distribution, track/road surface conditions, ambient temperature, engine temperature, altitude, air pressure... Do you really want me to keep listing all of the variables? A chassis dyno basically filters the power through the drivetrain and only removes precious few of these variables from the the total equation. Put to the track, a car's suspension may not be able to cope with the extra power and hop the axle or just spin. A CAI may show a large power gain with the hood up, parked on a dyno and be an absolute waste of money when the hood is down because it becomes an HAI. If the measurement is wrong because it's not taken under track conditions, or the countless variables are are not optimal (RARELY [i.e. never] are they), then you will NEVER know the potential.

Red equals ='s conditions that the dyno doesn't have to deal with in your examples.

I'll try to let more uuhhh....experienced people address the rest. (I hear ya, Yount!) I'm out.

Atleast he has got permission...

 

[5spd GT]

I didnt read the entire thread.. so this must have been already stated??

DYNO vs TRACK ? why did we build in the first place?? Numbers?? or Performance??
NUMBERS: Yeah, I have 185 CC runners, and flow at 375CFM @ 750 lift, Secret "Custom cam" and 55 lb injecters!! Dyno 450 Ft lbs @ 4500 and 550 HP @ 6500 ! Oh yeah, the car is trick custom red paint and I have never been to the track...

Performance? Yeah.. it runs 11.90s on the motor, 1.62 60 fts and 114 mph!!

The differance IMO is that taking to the dyno, alows you to "Tune" and change ... SOOoooo... when your at the track, you can feel good about the numbers and NOT have to have all the joy of running and tuning, then running again!! Tweaking is the name for the fastest car!! Engine and Suspension!! and the track IS the place for the true performance of the car!! the Dyno is just for tuning !! It will show the numbers.. for braging rights.. but NOT the performance of the car!!

Come on guys... how many guys in your neighbor hood Brag 400 RWHP + and WONT RACE your 265 RWHP stang?? It isnt the numbers in a two car race...... IS IT ??!!

Just going to the dyno... ?? It doesnt show "potential for anything!!"

Just me............................

Thumper

Thumper I agree. My point is (I have had to put this in nearly every post now and not may are catching on), that the dyno has less variables than the track to show you gained power (and where at specifically) if you add a "power mod". I was talking about E.T., bragging rights, suspension, what is a better way to "bench race", etc...just on what has less variables to contend with. That is the entire point I'm making but some on here are taking it as strickly track vs. dyno.

That is not the case...

 

[darthcual]

Everyone is missing the point. Re-read the first post. If I had a bone stock mustang. Then i took out the air silencer, dropped in a k & n, and put underdrive pullies on it, where would i see gains? At the track, or on a dyno?

 

[5spd GT]

Everyone is missing the point. Re-read the first post. If I had a bone stock mustang. Then i took out the air silencer, dropped in a k & n, and put underdrive pullies on it, where would i see gains? At the track, or on a dyno?

Exactly, thanks for paying attention (most aren't)

To add to that question, what would be a more consistent method of seeing that improvement? Basically which has less variables to keep the consistency level up and the variables down?

I think that answer is pretty obvious...don't you?

 

[Look Its Aaron]

Ok make it a lil easier for us then 5 speed GT.

Name the variables that you have to deal with at the track, and name the variables you have to deal with on the dyno.

 

[thumper460]

Not getting the point.....??

You will see a performance gain in MPH at the track , which when computed with cars weight will = HP increase... OR you will see the SAME HP increase at the dyno at rear wheels!! The differance being, 1) Your freaking car is strapped to the ground... or 2) your running at the track!!! To most of us , seeing how the results will be the same... running the track is cool!! Straped to a machine is OK at 60.00 for three pulls!!:Track:

Just me...........................

Thumper

 

[5spd GT]

Ok make it a lil easier for us then 5 speed GT.

Name the variables that you have to deal with at the track, and name the variables you have to deal with on the dyno.

I have been listing them throughout the thread.

Some examples: Track has the driver, track prep, headwinds, to deal with. Just a few...the thread contains more.

 

[5spd GT]

You will see a performance gain in MPH at the track , which when computed with cars weight will = HP increase... OR you will see the SAME HP increase at the dyno at rear wheels!! The differance being, 1) Your freaking car is strapped to the ground... or 2) your running at the track!!! To most of us , seeing how the results will be the same... running the track is cool!! Straped to a machine is OK at 60.00 for three pulls!!:Track:

Right, the mph does reflect that but how can you attribute all of a .08 gain in mph (for example) to a intake swap or throttle body swap when it is impossible for the track prep, driver (big one right there), and head/tail winds can't possibly be the same from race to race? That is the point.

The dyno takes out a major variable concern and that is the driver. How can one possible shift at the same rpm, at same time, same engaging/disengaging of the clutch to apply power to the track, launch the same (same 60ft)...etc...

How?

Their are reputable shops that dyno, operator error shouldn't occur there and they would be able to recognize a computized mistake.

 

[25thmustang]

Well in the end if you take a car, dyno it, mod it and redyno it, assuming the dyno is the same and so are the conditions it will most likely be easier to see if there was POWER ADDED. This power added may not always help the car, and the track is a better indicator of how the car itself was affected (again assuming conditions are the same).

You asked a simole question, but in my eyes a kind of pointless one, as almost any mod you "add" to a car is going to add power, and all a dyno shows is how much, a track shows how well the mod affected the cars driving characteristics, and actual performance.

Another thing here is the "potential" word that keeps showing up. A dyno doesnt show much in the way of potential because the power is just one factor of how the car performs, the chassis, suspension, tires, gears, weight, traction, driver are all factors of how a car performs, and in the end...

Performance > Horsepower

 

[Look Its Aaron]

The dyno takes out a major variable concern and that is the driver. How can one possible shift at the same rpm, at same time, same engaging/disengaging of the clutch to apply power to the track, launch the same (same 60ft)...etc...

My buddy Sean is a consistant driver. Constantly in the 1.7 60 ft's and runs 8.5 in the 1/8 all night long.

Explain that.

You are trying to tell me that milliseconds such as clutch travel from someones foot to the clutch fork, and the disengauging on the clutch etc that you have been mentioning, is really going to account for that much time?

 

[25thmustang]

A while back at the track (with a slipping trac-loc and all) I was able to go...

13.42
13.43
13.44
13.44
13.46
13.48

All with very similar mphs! So long as traction is similar my car is usually within a tenth or two of all the passes!