Need Help Identifying Part

Discussion in 'Fox 5.0 Mustang Tech' started by playboyracer, Aug 6, 2014.


  1. playboyracer

    playboyracer Member

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    Hey Stangnet!

    It's been several years since I've posted anything. Long story short, several hobbies and motorcycles later my oldest son has finally begun showing interest in my 199o LX. I decided to flip my Harley, give him my LX and purchase a 1990 GT so we'll both have projects to build upon (outside of video games, it’s tough to relate to kids sometimes). Anyway, I picked up this GT knowing it has issues as nearly all fox body's do and I'm slowing working through them. It has idle issues presumably because of the exhaust that was placed on it by the dealership to pass the NC inspection. The battery constantly dies so it obviously has a bad ground somewhere in the electrical system. The oil pressure gauge hasn't moved at all, so that needs to be checked. I took is out for a spin earlier and it nearly died on the road. So I pulled over, popped he hood and noticed a minimal amount of oil spraying out from the lower left side of the engine just below the alternator. I gave my mustang Shop Manual to my old neighbor who was also a mustang enthusiast and I'm having trouble I'ding the area or part that may be missing to plug the leak. I've included some photos of the engine bay along with some details about the vehicle below. Any help you could provide would be greatly appreciated.

    134k original miles, Cobra upper and lower intake, GT 40 heads, E cam, crappy exhaust. God bless and thanks in advance !!
     

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  2. playboyracer

    playboyracer Member

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    WOW, I just realized that the first pic is upside down. I can't figure out why. Sorry.
     
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  3. jrichker

    jrichker StangNet's favorite TOOL SN Certified Technician Founding Member

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    You guys with idle/stall problems could save a lot of time chasing your tails if you would go through the Surging Idle Checklist. Over 50 different people contributed information to it. The first two posts have all the fixes, and steps through the how to find and fix your idle problems without spending a lot of time and money. I continue to update it as more people post fixes or ask questions. You can post questions to that sticky and have your name and idle problem recognized. The guys with original problems and fixes get their posts added to the main fix. :D

    It's free, I don't get anything for the use of it except knowing I helped a fellow Mustang enthusiast with his car. At last check, it had more than 159,000 hits, which indicates it does help fix idle problems quickly and inexpensively.



    Alternator troubleshooting for 86-93 5.0 Mustangs:

    Never, never disconnect an alternator from the battery with the engine running. The resulting voltage spike can damage the car's electronics including the alternator.



    Revised 15 April 2012 to add simple check for regulator failure in Engine off ignition on, battery fully charged section, item 2.

    Red color text applies to cars with a 3G alternator.

    Do all of these tests in sequence. Do not skip around. The results of each test depend on the results of the previous tests for correct interpretation.

    Simple first step: Remove the alternator and take it to your local auto parts store. They can bench test it for free.


    Use a safety pin to pierce and probe the insulated connectors from the rear when doing tests with the connector plugged into its' mating connector.

    Engine off, ignition off, battery fully charged.
    1.) Look for 12 volts at the alternator output. No 12 volts and the dark green fuse link between the orange/black wires and the battery side of the starter solenoid has open circuited.
    3G alternator: Look for 12 volts at the stud on the back of the alternator where the 4 gauge power feed wire is bolted.
    No voltage and the fuse for the 4 gauge power feed wire is open or there are some loose connections.

    2.) Look for 12 volts on the yellow/white wire that is the power feed to the regulator. No 12 volts, and the fuse link for the yellow/white wire has open circuited.

    Engine off, ignition on, battery fully charged:
    1.) Alternator warning light should glow. No glow, bulb has burned out or there is a break in the wiring between the regulator plug and the dash. The warning light supplies an exciter voltage that tells the regulator to turn on. There is a 500 ohm resistor in parallel with the warning light so that if the bulb burns out, the regulator still gets the exciter voltage.
    Disconnect the D connector with the 3 wires (yellow/white, white/black and green/red) from the voltage regulator.
    Measure the voltage on the Lt green/red wire. It should be 12 volts. No 12 volts and the wire is broken, or the 500 ohm resistor and dash indicator lamp are bad. If the 12 volts is missing, replace the warning lamp. If after replacing the warning lamp, the test fails again, the wiring between the warning lamp and the alternator is faulty. The warning lamp circuit is part of the instrument panel and contains some connectors that may cause problems.

    2.) Reconnect the D plug to the alternator
    Probe the green/red wire from the rear of the connector and use the battery negative post as a ground. You should see 2.4-2.6 volts. No voltage and the previous tests passed, you have a failed voltage regulator. This is an actual measurement taken from a car with a working electrical system. If you see full or almost full12 volts, the regulator has failed.

    Engine on, Ignition on, battery fully charged:
    Probe the green/red wire from the rear of the connector and use the battery negative post as a ground. You should see battery voltage minus .25 to 1.0 volt. If the battery measured across the battery is 15.25 volts, you should see 14.50 volts

    Familiarize yourself with the following application note from Fluke: See http://assets.fluke.com/appnotes/automotive/beatbook.pdf for help for help troubleshooting voltage drops across connections and components. .

    [​IMG]
    You will need to do some voltage drop testing of several of the wires.

    Voltage drops should not exceed the following:
    200 mV Wire or cable
    300 mV Switch
    100 mV Ground
    0 mV to <50 mV Sensor Connections
    0.0V bolt together connections


    Start looking for these things:
    1.) Bad diode(s) in the alternator - one or more diodes have open circuited and are causing the voltage to drop off as load increases. Remove the alternator and bench test it to confirm or deny this as being the problem.

    2.) The secondary power ground is between the back of the intake manifold and the driver's side firewall. It is often missing or loose. It supplies ground for the alternator, A/C compressor clutch and other electrical accessories such as the gauges. Do the voltage drop test as shown in the Fluke tech note link. Measure the voltage drop between the alternator frame and the battery negative post. Watch for an increase in drop as the load increases. Use the Fluke voltage drop figures as guidelines for your decisions.

    3.) Bad regulator that does not increase field current as load increases. Remove the alternator and bench test it to confirm or deny this as being the problem.

    4.) Bad sense wire - open circuit in sense wiring or high resistance. The yellow/white wire is the voltage sense and power for the field. There is a fuse link embedded in the wiring where it connects to the black/orange wiring that can open up and cause problems. Disconnect the battery negative cable from the battery: this will keep you from making sparks when you do the next step. Then disconnect the yellow/white wire at the alternator and the green fuse link at the starter solenoid/starter relay. Measure the resistance between the alternator end of the yellow/white wire and the green fuse link: you should see less than 1 ohm. Reconnect all the wires when you have completed this step.

    5.) Bad power feed wiring from the alternator. Use caution in the next step, since you will need to do it with everything powered up and the engine running. You are going to do the Fluke voltage drop tests on the power feed wiring, fuse links and associated parts. Connect one DMM lead to the battery side of the starter solenoid/starter relay. Carefully probe the backside of the black/orange wire connector where it plugs into the alternator. With the engine off, you should see very little voltage. Start the engine and increase the load on the electrical system. Watch for an increase in drop as the load increases. Use the Fluke voltage drop figures as guidelines for your decisions.


    [​IMG]


    Alternator wiring circuit
    Notice the green wire connects to a switched power source. The circuit contains a 500 ohm resistor in series between the switched power and the alternator. Connecting it to switched power keeps the regulator from drawing current when the engine is not running. The resistor limits the current flowing through the wire so that a fuse isn't needed if the wire shorts to ground.

    Also notice the sense wire connects to the starter solenoid and it is fused. It connects to the starter solenoid so that it can "sense" the voltage drop across the output wiring from the alternator.

    Replacement parts:
    14 gauge fuse link for stock alternator.

    Bussman BP/FL14 Fusible link
    AutoZone

    Dorman - Conduct-Tite 14 Gauge Fusible Link Wire Part No. 85620
    Advance auto parts #85620
    Pep Boys - SKU #8637594


    Grounds

    Revised 28-Oct-2012 to add signal ground description & possible problems if it is bad

    Grounds are important to any electrical system, and especially to computer controlled engines. In an automobile, the ground is the return path for power to get back to the alternator and battery.

    Make sure that all the ground places are clean and shiny bare metal: no paint, no corrosion.

    1.) The main power ground is from engine block to battery: it is the power ground for the starter & alternator.


    2.) The secondary power ground is between the back of the intake manifold and the driver's side firewall. It is often missing or loose. It supplies ground for the alternator, A/C compressor clutch and other electrical accessories such as the gauges. The clue to a bad ground here is that the temp gauge goes up as you add electrical load such as heater, lights and A/C.

    Any car that has a 3G or high output current alternator needs a 4 gauge ground wire running from the block to the chassis ground where the battery pigtail ground connects. The 3G has a 130 amp capacity, so you wire the power side with 4 gauge wire. It stands to reason that the ground side handles just as much current, so it needs to be 4 gauge too.

    The picture shows the common ground point for the battery , computer, & extra 3G alternator ground wire as described above in paragraph 2. A screwdriver points to the bolt that is the common ground point.

    The battery common ground is a 10 gauge pigtail with the computer ground attached to it.
    Picture courtesy timewarped1972
    [​IMG]

    Correct negative battery ground cable.
    [​IMG]

    3.) The computer's main power ground (the one that comes from the battery ground wire) uses pins 40 & 60 for all the things it controls internally: it comes off the ground pigtail on the battery ground wire. Due to its proximity to the battery, it may become corroded by acid fumes from the battery.
    In 86-90 model cars, it is a black cylinder about 2 1/2" long by 1" diameter with a black/lt green wire.
    In 91-95 model cars it is a black cylinder about 2 1/2" long by 1" diameter with a black/white wire.
    You'll find it up next to the starter solenoid where the wire goes into the wiring harness.

    All the grounds listed in items 1,2 & 3 need to bolt to clean, shiny bare metal. A wire brush or some fine sandpaper is the best thing to use to clean the ground connections.


    4.) All the sensors have a common separate signal ground. This includes the TPS, ACT, EGR, BAP, & VSS sensors. This ground is inside the computer and connects pin 46 to pins 40 & 60, which are the main computer grounds. If this internal computer ground gets damaged, you won't be able to dump codes and the car will have idle/stall/ performance problems

    5.) The O2 sensor heaters have their own ground (HEGO ground) coming from the computer. This is different and separate from the O2 sensor ground. It is an orange wire with a ring terminal on it. It is located in the fuel injector wiring harness and comes out under the throttle body. It gets connected to a manifold or bolt on back of the cylinder head.

    6.) The TFI module has 2 grounds: one for the foil shield around the wires and another for the module itself. The TFI module ground terminates inside the computer.

    7.) The computer takes the shield ground for the TFI module and runs it from pin 20 to the chassis near the computer.


    See http://assets.fluke.com/appnotes/automotive/beatbook.pdf for help for help troubleshooting voltage drops across connections and components. Be sure to have the maximum load on a circuit when testing voltage drops across connections. As current across a defective or weak connection, increases so does the voltage drop. A circuit or connection may check out good with no load or minimal load, but show up bad under maximum load conditions. .

    Voltage drops should not exceed the following:
    200 mV Wire or cable
    300 mV Switch
    100 mV Ground
    0 mV to <50 mV Sensor Connections
    0.0V bolt together connections

    [​IMG]

    Extra grounds are like the reserve parachute for a sky diver. If the main one fails, there is always your reserve.

    The best plan is to have all the grounds meet at one central spot and connect together there. That eliminates any voltage drops from grounds connected at different places. A voltage drop between the computer ground and the alternator power ground will effectively reduce the voltage available to the computer by the amount of the drop.
     
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  4. playboyracer

    playboyracer Member

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    Thanks for the quick reply jrichker. Believe it or not I actually did as you suggested and have been working the the aforementioned issued as you have recommended on so many previous threads. I appreciate your level of talent, experience and extreme attention to detail provided regarding the surge and idle issues. However, (respectfully) that doesn't help identify the area in question. I just ordered another shop manual among other things to help get these projects off the ground. Also, I've been a member since 2003. I'm back from a well overdue hiatis so you'll be seeing a lot more from myself and my son once he registers. Thanks again and any insight you could provide would be phenomenal.
     
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  5. Micheal Nadeau

    Micheal Nadeau Active Member

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    I just compared your pic to my car. I have an 89 GT and the picture just shows the timing plate. The area leaking just looks like where the oil pan, block and timing cover all meet. Your car looks like it needs some gaskets replaced.
     
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  6. mikestang63

    mikestang63 Mustang Master

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    Leaky timing cover most likely. Best to clean up the area with some brake clean and then take some baby powder and sprinkle it on the area. It will tell you where the oil leak is coming from. They tend to corrode,warp and even crack over time as they are aluminum. You will need to pull the fan, pulleys, balancer, distruibutor, a/c bracket, timing pointer, and all the bolts- dont forget the ones in the bottom front of the oil pan to get it and the water pump off- you can take it and the water pump off in one piece. Be careful with the water pump bolts as they are prone to snapping- liberal amounts of PB blaster and/or heat help to remove them. Use antisieze when installing them back.

    While you have the timing cover off, replace the timing chain and gears, timing cover seal, and I would replace the water pump. Check the timing cover for cracks, warpage, or if it is corroded around the water passages. You will need new gaskets for the timing cover, water pump, and the front tabs of the oil pan. I also use right stuff and put small globs of in the corners where the timing cover meets the block and the pan. Your water pump is reverse rotation.
     
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  7. omarimoe

    omarimoe Active Member

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    X2 on the timing cover. It looks pretty messy from the pics. Clean it up wash it down and then let it run a little to get a better idea of what and were its leaking from. If you were ever deciding on a new cam now would be a prime time for it considering your going to have the whole front of the engine aprt anyway.
     
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  8. playboyracer

    playboyracer Member

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    Thanks for the inputs guys. I agree it definitely needs to be cleaned up. I took a few more pictures to show the area in question. It appears to be covered in oil because of the amount thats being sprayed from the hole. I compared it to my LX (same year), flipped through my shop manual, electrical & vacuum trouble shooting manual, engine/emissions-diagnosis manual and several internet searches without any luck so far. The oil pressure gauge hasn't moved been showing any movement. I'm guessing that this is probably contributing to it. My mechanical oil pressure gauge arrived late this afternoon from amazon. The ones in the local shops looked too cheap. Anyway, hopefully the below photos will assist. I'll provide a video tomorrow if it helps. Thanks again guys.
     

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  9. playboyracer

    playboyracer Member

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    Alright here's the video as promised. I've got the flashlight pointing directly at the spot in question. It's a little tough to tell, but if you maximize the video you'll notice a small amount of oil droplets being being projected from the hole. I took the video while conducting a mechanical oil pressure test. The gauge showed that it was steady at 50 psi so I'm relieved to know that there's some pressure. Please let me know what you think.


    View: http://youtu.be/mZMSMevNG-M
     
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  10. mikestang63

    mikestang63 Mustang Master

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    sorry can't see it
    :shrug:
     
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  11. Micheal Nadeau

    Micheal Nadeau Active Member

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    When you compare it to the LX, what looks different? I have had three 5.0's and never seen anything installed in that area. It could very well be a crack, and given its location, it "seems" like something is missing.
     
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  12. Saiboot

    Saiboot Member

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    Hard to tell from the pics, but it looks like a timing cover w/the hole for a front dipstick. I believe this hole was for the earlier small blocks, otherwise it is just an un-drilled boss there.
     
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