Speed Density Or Mas Air What's The Benifits?

Discussion in 'Fox 5.0 Mustang Tech' started by 1200gt, Sep 19, 2013.


  1. mikestang63

    mikestang63 Mustang Master

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2012
    Messages:
    3,912
    Showcase:
    20
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    1,096
    Trophy Points:
    144
    Location:
    In the garage
    #21
  2. Noobz347

    Noobz347 Stangnet Facilities Maint Tech... Er... Janitor Admin Dude

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 1985
    Messages:
    20,118
    Showcase:
    58
    Albums:
    5
    Likes Received:
    2,544
    Trophy Points:
    174
    Location:
    Box behind Walmart
    #22
  3. mikestang63

    mikestang63 Mustang Master

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2012
    Messages:
    3,912
    Showcase:
    20
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    1,096
    Trophy Points:
    144
    Location:
    In the garage
    DAMN jack n cokes strikes again :doh:
    #23
  4. Gearbanger 101

    Gearbanger 101 Straight Outta Locash Super Mod

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2002
    Messages:
    14,414
    Likes Received:
    919
    Trophy Points:
    164
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    Yeah, gotta grab one of those too. Had an Innovate LC-1 on my last car. Worked really well to dial my A/F ratio in, but I burned out the sensor in less than a year.
    I'll probably pick up another on unless someone can recommend something cheaper?

    A used PMS might be the ticket. I seem them going for around $600 in most classifieds ads. The mail order tune idea doesn't intrigue me a whole lot. That's how I initially tuned my last car and it was a royal PITA. I finally ended up driving it 4hrs to the dyno (Steeda.ca....the place I mentioned prior) and had it done there. They did a great job in the end, but it was a major hassle. Had to go back 3-times to finally have it perfected. I was over $1,200 deep by then. Not something I want to repeat.

    Dasilva Racing...yeah, they do good work. That's Joe Dasilva's shop. He was pretty big back in the days of the Fox body and SN95 Mustangs. They're about a 4hr drive from here, so I wouldn't exactly call them local. I can't imagine their rates being much different than Steeda's?

    On an even more awesome note. I had the rail undone to change my fuel pressure regulator this evening. Had to pry it up off of the injectors in order to get to the allen head screw on the inside of the rail. Wouldn't you know it, I pulled the O-ring off of two of the injectors and had them stuck up in the fuel rail. I'm 99% certain I've ruined one of them trying to get it out...and it looks like I'm going to have to take off the upper manifold to get the other one. So I guess I'm not driving the car again this weekend. FML :bang:
    #24
  5. mikestang63

    mikestang63 Mustang Master

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2012
    Messages:
    3,912
    Showcase:
    20
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    1,096
    Trophy Points:
    144
    Location:
    In the garage
    Yep. Joey DaSilva.. I remember him back from the old 5.0 days. I think they went by JP Performance? Him, Nitrous Pete, Gene Deputy, and Big Daddy were the big dogs back then. I think I met them at WF Challenge I or II. They seemed like nice guys. If I remember correctly, they built many engines for a lot of top racers.


    Regarding the O ring, can you get at it with a little pick or hooked seal remover? Your gonna replace them anyway and they are cheap so who care if you rip them on the way out. Easier than removing the upper.
    #25
  6. FastDriver

    FastDriver Mod Dude

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2001
    Messages:
    3,007
    Showcase:
    42
    Albums:
    3
    Likes Received:
    135
    Trophy Points:
    84
    Brian, tuning yourself takes a significant investment in time to learn. It's pretty confusing but there are sites with people that will help. Your call. I just cant believe what a rip-off they're trying to pull on you.
    #26
  7. Gearbanger 101

    Gearbanger 101 Straight Outta Locash Super Mod

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2002
    Messages:
    14,414
    Likes Received:
    919
    Trophy Points:
    164
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    That's pretty much par for the course here it seems as far as rates go. That they're asking for the chip is ludicrous though....especially considering I'm already paying for their inflated shop rates.
    #27
  8. FastDriver

    FastDriver Mod Dude

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2001
    Messages:
    3,007
    Showcase:
    42
    Albums:
    3
    Likes Received:
    135
    Trophy Points:
    84
    To me, anything over $500 out the door is too much.
    #28
  9. mikestang63

    mikestang63 Mustang Master

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2012
    Messages:
    3,912
    Showcase:
    20
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    1,096
    Trophy Points:
    144
    Location:
    In the garage
    Is that a lifetime tune? or one time? If they will retune the car as your combo changes then that's not that bad., If it's for one time, then yes, that is crackhead prices.
    #29
  10. 1200gt

    1200gt Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 1999
    Messages:
    305
    Likes Received:
    21
    Trophy Points:
    19

    This is all interesting to hear, Mike thanks for this info. I had never heard anyone working thru speed density. Everyone that I knew went Mass Air. I am going to give crane a call to see what my option are. Mike you sound as if you are opposed to Mass Air conversions.... you've for sure given me more to consider. I was aware of the loss of vacuum being an issue with any setup if pulled too low. Power brakes being one item that suffers....
    #30
  11. mikestang63

    mikestang63 Mustang Master

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2012
    Messages:
    3,912
    Showcase:
    20
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    1,096
    Trophy Points:
    144
    Location:
    In the garage
    Not opposed to MAF at all. Just saying you don't need to run and install it for throwing on some bolt ons. If you plan on a blower, radical cam, then yes do it. If not, get a tune and a SD cam.
    #31
  12. 1200gt

    1200gt Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 1999
    Messages:
    305
    Likes Received:
    21
    Trophy Points:
    19
    Any idea of what a tune for SD would cost?
    #32
  13. mikestang63

    mikestang63 Mustang Master

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2012
    Messages:
    3,912
    Showcase:
    20
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    1,096
    Trophy Points:
    144
    Location:
    In the garage
    I'd check with Steve @ Thunder or Luke @ Revolution down by you.
    #33
  14. Gearbanger 101

    Gearbanger 101 Straight Outta Locash Super Mod

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2002
    Messages:
    14,414
    Likes Received:
    919
    Trophy Points:
    164
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    It should also be noted that the MAF conversion was all the rage back in the day, because there weren't really any DIY options regarding ECU tuning for the EFI crowd. Self tuning systems like the Anderson PMS, Megasquirt, FAST and Moats set ups weren't around in the mid/late-90's and the options that were, were reaalllly expensive for your average tuner. So of course, the natural progression was converting to Mass Air.

    That's no longer the case. You can just about tune your car with one of the above systems for the same cost as converting your current Speed Density set up over to Mass Air.....and you'll have tuning capability across the board, for as long as you own your car to boot.
    #34
  15. FastDriver

    FastDriver Mod Dude

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2001
    Messages:
    3,007
    Showcase:
    42
    Albums:
    3
    Likes Received:
    135
    Trophy Points:
    84
    Spot on, Brian. Honestly, I'd venture to guess that tuning a speed density factory EEC is probably simpler than tuning an MAF car. I'd say go MAF only if you plan to tinker with significant things like the heads, cam, or intake and don't want the hassle of retuning the car. However, if you're going to buy a self-tuner, then you're no worse off than with an MAF. In fact, with added simplicity and one less part to worry about, I'd say you're better off.

    I have experience with the standalone SD setup on my car, and an MAF EEC4. I know it's not apples to apples, but I definitely prefer tuning the SD.
    #35
  16. madspeed

    madspeed Colonel Mustard Mod Dude Founding Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 1999
    Messages:
    8,421
    Showcase:
    9
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    1,224
    Trophy Points:
    174
    Location:
    a van down by the river



    I'll chime in regarding the Quarterhorse.... I have one. I bought it through Wllie Lynch at Dirty Dirty Racing after I installed my turbo and a bunch of other stuff. He is very highly recomended in case you haven't heard of him. Anyow, the quarterhorse came with a base tune loaded which as pretty good. After installing the Binary Editor program and recording some datalogs and emailing them back to Willie, my tune is pretty much spot on. Not bad for a whopping $349 including email tune updates! I can plug my laptop in, hit datalog, go drive, email hime the file, he will analyze it and make any updates. Emails the tune back, load it to the QH, and go driving! I know Chris at PAS does tis, maybe even Kurgan, but I will speak highly of Willie, and I've never even met the guy
    #36
  17. FastDriver

    FastDriver Mod Dude

    Joined:
    Sep 6, 2001
    Messages:
    3,007
    Showcase:
    42
    Albums:
    3
    Likes Received:
    135
    Trophy Points:
    84
    Hey mad, I'm an aspiring tuning guru. I'm curious as to what feedback is in the datalogs that clues Willie in on what to change. I assume he's using Wideband information together with load and RPM to reach the AFR he wants to see. Aside from the AFR, does he ever modify the spark tables? If so, do you have any idea how he identifies necessary changes?
    #37
  18. madspeed

    madspeed Colonel Mustard Mod Dude Founding Member

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 1999
    Messages:
    8,421
    Showcase:
    9
    Albums:
    1
    Likes Received:
    1,224
    Trophy Points:
    174
    Location:
    a van down by the river
    Not exactly sure of it all yet myself, but with my tunes he's pretty much only had to play with the Maf curve. He nailed everything else when he setup the base tune. I was rich at first with the old pro m pro tube, but swapped in a new hpx slot meter so it needed a little tweaking. As far as the datalogging, the important things were AFR and the load values. Doesnt appear that spark tables have been adjusted at all, i dont see any differences when comparing different tunes in BE.
    #38
  19. f8tlfiveo

    f8tlfiveo My wife likes my spool and blow-off valve.

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2007
    Messages:
    1,425
    Likes Received:
    75
    Trophy Points:
    49
    Location:
    Lancaster, PA
    Prob not touching the spark tables. My old car was tuned the same way but not through dirty dirty. I also have had good experiences with this method. Go to eectuning.org for tuning questions. It's mostly moates and tweecer but prob relevant to any tuning device.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    #39
  20. Gearbanger 101

    Gearbanger 101 Straight Outta Locash Super Mod

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2002
    Messages:
    14,414
    Likes Received:
    919
    Trophy Points:
    164
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    I was under the impression that you needed a degree in electrical engineering along with an IT background to work with the Moates. Is this not the case?
    #40

Share This Page