Tuned KB - New #'s!!!

Discussion in 'SN95 4.6L Mustang Tech' started by Dig-It, Dec 13, 2003.


  1. wjfawb0

    wjfawb0 Founding Member

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    When I was at Tim's shop and they were talking with the DSG GT owner on Saturday, I think they were talking some high numbers. We'll see soon enough. :D
    -Jason
     
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  2. el_kid_1

    el_kid_1 New Member

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    Reading your post has given me the butterflies. I'm having my KB kit installed and should be ready by Friday. At least you have the option of going to a tuner and have your car dyno-tuned. Here in Puerto Rico, I don't have that option, and hence will have to rely on the KB tune. I just hope I don't run onto any of the problems described in your post. From what I can see, your problems are temperature related. The average temperature in PR is 85 F all year long, so I hope that will help the performance of my KB kit.
     
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  3. B C

    B C New Member

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    If you search you will find he has said he has said that he has had this "hitching" problem since the car was new. Maybe there is something odd with his car.
    I am in California pretty close to KB. I am happy with my KB tune. I pulled my plugs and they look good.
     
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  4. KBC@KB

    KBC@KB New Member

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    Stumped

    Hey Red Dragon.

    I tried to send you a personal email, but StangNet came back with a message that your allotted space was used up. So, I posted a request for you to email me personally and for whatever reason once again you decided not to email me back. I feel it necessary to address some of your points, since some seeing your comments may get the wrong idea about our "not helping you".

    For the life of me, I can't quite figure out why you insist on posting that we're not willing to help you, or "we're stumped". I have requested that you email me personally more than once (I know you have my email address), but you chose not to. Instead, you continue to post things that are wrong with your car as if we created the problem.

    Haven't you asked yourself why no one else is having this "hitching" problem? There are enough (hundreds) of guys out there now with the exact same kit you have, yet none (I repeat none) are having this problem. If they were, we would have surely heard about it and so would you. The only one close was BrightBlue00Gt, and he found his problem - totally unrelated to Kenne Bell. Ask him and he'll tell you.

    We made one spark adjustment to your chip for extremely cold weather, which you said it worked perfectly and all the detonation was gone, yet now you are posting "there are too many places that it will detonate". What happened? The chip can't keep changing where the engine detonates. If it didn't detonate before (with the last chip), then it wouldn't start to detonate over time from the chip, it would be from some other cause. Although we've tried in the past, chips simply cannot fix an installation or maintenance problem.

    And as far as the dealer saying it's too lean; no one, I mean no one (short of a Nascar crew chief) will ever convince me that by looking at a spark plug that the engine's too lean. Come on. Have the guy put a $10,000 air/fuel monitor on the car like we do, then tell me it's too lean. It's not too lean, UNLESS you have some other problem with your fuel delivery. Have you replaced the fuel filter? What is your fuel pressure? Is your BAP working?

    I don't think it's fair to post that "we need to step forward". How much farther forward would you have us step? So far, we've done everything we could from our end short of flying out there to pinpoint your problem, yet, you seem to enjoy bashing us on your posts. We've never denied trying to help you (I told you more than once to email me personally, yet you will not. Instead, you seem to rejoice somehow in posting on StangNet). If no one else is having your same problem (as you've seen from the responses), how can you blame us for that?

    We know Bob Kennedy personally and he is a good guy. He may be able to help you find your problem, but it will be unrelated to tuning. I would tell Bob to leave the chip alone and look for the real problem.

    And "pointing out" that we said nobody else could tune a KB blower better than us still holds. IMO, Dig-it will have issues if he has the stock MAF and is using 91 octane, especially on a hot day. I would caution anyone purchasing a kit about "re-tuning" the chip that comes with our supercharger: "There's more to it than adjusting timing and fuel at WOT."

    At any rate, my offer still holds. Email me personally at [email protected]. You started out being a good advocate of Kenne Bell. We'd like to keep it that way. Have a safe and happy holiday.

    Regards,

    Ken
     
    #64
  5. Screwed2V

    Screwed2V New Member

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    Is the motor in the car already?
     
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  6. RedGTvert

    RedGTvert Founding Member

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    ***
     
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  7. DC-GT

    DC-GT New Member

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    I know I am sticking my neck out here, but,,,,

    Wow, I didn't see it that way at all. I think all he was trying to say was that he has the most experience with his product...

    Text is hard to see in the light of context and is very hard to discern sometimes. I thought he was defensive but still trying to help...

    Of all the products I have have seen offered for our stangs, I have to say he has done a "TON" of testing on his product. He stands behind it from what I Have seen, and it really puts out. 420 rwhp and 460 rwtq is nothing short of fantastic for a stock block.

    I appreciate his wanting to make it "right" with his customer, it is rare where I am from.

    Bo
     
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  8. RedGTvert

    RedGTvert Founding Member

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    Bo, I appreciate what you are saying. I also tried to give some kuddos to him for trying to help.

    Problem being when he comes on here telling everyone that nobody can tune a car better then KB, which is pure rubbish. Even some of the better tuners, and most of us know who they are would never make a statement like that.

    KB equipment has been out for many years, and people know how it operates and what it takes to make it right, but to come on here like he did is pure hogwash.

    To tell the customer and the rest of the people on this site, that there is no way the chip could be the issue is pure arrogance. Is it possible, sure it is possible that the chip is not the issue, but why not try and be humble about it.

    I have seen numerous '03 Cobras that did better after they pulled the KB chip and were tuned with other software.

    And yes, a good tuner knows there is more then tuning just WOT and timing. Many good tuners are using software that was developed by the same people who designes, engineered and wrote the programming for the EEC in your car, so to tell me and the rest of Stangnet that KB can only tune KB cars is redicules. You don't hear Vortech, Paxton, Procharger, Saleen come on here with that type of arrogance.

    There are two sides to every story, but it is known amongst the Mustang community that KB is an independant thinking company who sometimes has customer service issues and customer relation issues, and Ken C's post's that I have read recently is any indication, I can see why they have earned a certain reputation.
     
    #68
  9. B C

    B C New Member

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    I think everyone needs to take it easy here. Text messages can not convey intent.

    If Ken was being defensive maybe it's because this should be handled differently. I wouldn't appreciate the things Red Dragon has posted in a public forum either. I don't think this is the best way to go about problems like this. Especially an isolated problem. His hitching problem has been in his car from day one, before the KB. He has posted about it many times.

    http://forums.stangnet.com/showthread.php?t=340243


    I think you need to reread Ken's post. He didn't say no one else could read a spark plug and tell if it was lean. He said that no one could convince him other than a crew chief that just by looking at a spark plug you could tell it was lean.

    I don't know if you have seen how a lot of tuners tune but a dyno and a wideband has nothing on the 747 cockpit type of instrumentation that Kenne Bell uses to tune. If I had my own supercharger company I would hope no one could tune my product better than I could. Especially when they work with the product everyday 10 hours plus a day for what, 14 straight years? Sure other tuners can get more hp out of the car, that doesn't make the tune better.
     
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  10. SmithAtlanta

    SmithAtlanta Founding Member

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    Not yet, Micool. I think there was a slight hiccup but they had resolved it yesterday and I bet the engine will be in the car by this weekend. Jeff wants to do the KB install himself since he has a chrome one on the way. By the way I was thumbing through the install guide and it looked pretty detailed.

    I think Jeff(KB Supercharger) and Andy(turbo) are going to have a little race pretty soon for the shop bragging rights.... :)

    RedGTvert, I agree with you on the tune statement. You can take all the specs of the car and have a tune made and still have issues. The littlest issue can cause problems. I would like to see Kenne Bell develop an adaptive tune flash that would work similarly to Steeda's adaptive tune.

    As far as the Kenne Bell rep coming online, I think that is a good thing. He really looks like he wants to help Red Dragon out. I really think it will be an install issue or bad sensor. Just my 1/2 cents worth....
     
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  11. SmithAtlanta

    SmithAtlanta Founding Member

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    I don't think Kenne Bell can tune for every setup, though. No company can. It's just not financially viable to go out and buy every part just to test on a dyno. That's why we have tuners. On the issue with Red Dragon, I agree with you 100%. He needs to work his problem out with KB before blasting them online.....
     
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  12. RedGTvert

    RedGTvert Founding Member

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    You don't need a 747 cockpit to be able to tune. All you need is data aquisition to tell you everything you need to know. A tuner worth his salt can read this data. And BTW, what good is this cockpit, if you are trying to tune mailorder.

    Look, the KB is a great product, and if I ever make a decision on my next product, the KB is one of the items I am considering, so all you KB people, don't get your panties all twisted up. I am not questioning thier product, more the attitude of Ken C and what seems to me to be real arrogance, that I feel there is no need for.

    If you don't see it as I do, fine, you have your opinion and have every right to it, albeit wrong :D j/k

    I don't care if Red Dragon says what he wants, and I have no problem with Ken coming on here to try and defend their position.

    He wants to help, fine, but to push this hogwash about KB only knowing how to tune a KB car is bullsh*it, and I know you are smart enough not to buy into that crap. The chip you receive is mailorder.
     
    #72
  13. RedGTvert

    RedGTvert Founding Member

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    PS. I have seen the data side by side, and the tunes with more HP were as solid or more solid then the KB tune.

    Face it, no matter who tunes the car, you still take a risk by using a power adder, and if you didn't want to get the maximum safe HP from it, then you are not getting the best return on your investment.
     
    #73
  14. B C

    B C New Member

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    He didn't say that either. (Are you one of those people that calls into the Tom Leykis show and misquotes him too? :) ) He said they tune it the best. I would hope they feel that way.
     
    #74
  15. Red Dragon

    Red Dragon New Member

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    WOW! This thread took a real curve. :bang:

    Where do I start?.....

    First of all, I wasn't trashing KB or their tune. The typed word can take one any type of tone depending on the reader. I can't help that.

    My intent for my post to this thread was to point out that the world is not perfect and neither is my car/KB combination. Yes, I have had some issues since day-1 with my car. But since the KB, some things seem to be worse and/or new; especially as it gets colder (this was not the case with stock setup). Is it KB's problem or Ford's? :shrug: Heck if I know, but in the end I have to do whatever I can to find out. I spent a lot of money replacing parts to make it easier for KB and Ford to diagnose the problem. I bought the rest of the complete kit from KB to eliminate those components as being the problem and I replaced EVERY EGR component once I relaized that I could stop the hitching by disconnecting the EGR. Ford worked on the the car three times and found nothing. The last time they spent 4 hours combing through the car with VERY expensive equipment and did not find anything. They did know something was wrong, but could not figure it out. I give them a lot of credit because they were working on a car with an after-market chip. Most dealers won't go near them. I have done as much as I can do to make it easier for Ford and KB. I have run out of things to try.

    Now for the spark plug thing. I used to sometimes work the pits at an oval dirt track and we would sometimes pull spark plugs (especially on a new engine) to get a "quick-and-dirty" check of how the care was running. We would make spark plug and/or main jet changes depending on the color of the plug. This was not the perfect world with expensive equipment, but sometimes it would mean the difference of being in the fornt or the rear of the pack. Many mechanics look at the the plugs to get a "feel" for things before they dig deeper. This is all this guy was doing. He never gave me an exact air/fuel ratio because he couldn't from a visual inspection. But sometimes we have to use one mthod of diagnosis to lead us to another that eventually gives us the correct results. It was just his "opinion" from a visual inspection that the car was running lean. And since the car can be made to easily ping like a mother, he was checking to see if the pinging was from running lean. As for my opinion on the pinging, I never drove ANY supercharged cars before, so I took it for granted that there are times when they will, so you just "drive around them. You guys told me that was the way it was. this guy drives Lightnings and blown cobras and says that mine pings WAY too much. I trust his judgement better than my own bcause of my limited experience with blown cars.

    As for me not responding to the post by KB to email them, I do not visit this board much these days and did not see that post until just now. However, with that said, the last time I called KB, I was told that they would call me back to discuss the problem. That NEVER happend. I have voice mail and there were no messages from KB. So why the heck slam me on this board because I do not respond on the board when they were supposed to call me? If KB would call me, a lot of these issues would never reach these boards. But we Mustang people put things on here to get help and just for the pure "general knowlege" of the issue. This helps many people resolve in their minds what they may or may not like about a product and sometimes we end up helping out each other.

    Yes, there are MANY KB blown Mustangs running great. But to think that there can not be one that is less than perfect is a dream at beast. There are bound to be problems with some of them. I might just happen to be the only one (called an "outlier" in statistics).

    And my statement for Kb to come forward to help was not an angry sentiment, but just me stating that the ball was back in their court based upon the fact that I had brought the car into Ford again and still came back empty. If I thought 100% that the problem was a KB problem, I never would have brought the car back to Ford. But to save KB some head scratching time, I took my time to bring the car to get checked out again.

    So, is there a problem? You bet there is! Finding the "real" problem is going to be a real ******. I still have the original problem with the gurgling noise and the occasional skip at idle that I had on day-1 of the car's life. But the car as stock never had severe pinging when the temperature dropped. I can't say for absolute certainty that I had the EGR problem when stock as well. I know that the car had an occasional "miss" cruising on the first day I got the car, but I also seem to recall that it went away by the second day and never returned. I chaulked that one up to break-in of an injector or some other thing. As time progresses, I am forgetting how the car drove as stock. Therefore I should be careful in saying (for sure) how the car drove back then.

    As for KB posting here, I don't have a problem with that at all. We will all benifit from it in the end; KB included. Even if they slam me a little bit. But jeepers, don't slam me on this board when you were suppose to call me to begin with. I am busier then a cat trying to take a crap on a hot tim roof these days. I can't always get to read the forums on Stangnet. But I do return phone calls.

    I would like to ask everyone to chill out a little bit over this thread. I really appreciate people backing me up and Kudos to those of you who did. But I would really like to keep our vendors on our side. KB developed a supurb product and I would like them to keep this work up. Yes we do have to keep all of our vendors honest. This board will surely attempt to do that. But we have to be carefull not to chase the vendors away.

    I also like the fact that other vendors are stepping up to the plate to make the Kb blowers even better (with tunes). I know KB thinks they are "all that". But being in business myself, I know for a fact that nothing stands still and that there are other knowlegable people that can take things one level higher. This is good for the Mustang community as a whole. It gives KB some competition, but this isn't always a bad thing. It keeps people interested in their product. In my opinion, if there are other vendors making tunes, then those vendors are putting their seal of approval on the blower. This is a good thing folks.

    So where does that leave me? :shrug: I still have a car that will detonate itself to death in real cold wheather. Yes, some adjustments to the tune helped. But as it keeps getting colder, some problems seem to be coming back. And I can no longer get 94 Octane. Sunoco did away with it. So that has recently added fuel to the fire (so to speak). The blower is supposed to work fine at 91 Octane, but the switch from 94 to 93 has had an effect. I would freak at the thought of having to run 91. So something is definately wrong. I can't find it and a VERY qualified Ford mechanic that works on SVT vehicles can't find it. We have checked everything possible from our end.

    So, KB, if you could please give me a call as you guys originally said you would, maybe we could put our heads together and resolve this issue. Maybe I have a bad intake? Mine was from the first batch that originally had some QC problems. Heck I don't know. I am tapped-out as far as what I can do now. Is it posible I got the wrong set of injectors? As for the fuel pressure, my guage was bad, but Ford pointed that out and tested the fuel pressure themselves. They said the fuel pressure was very good and the Boost-pump was working fine. Ford even re-flashed the computer with the chip removed to be sure I was up-to-date. This guy combed through the whole system, but was road blocked in the end because of the KB parts. But he did not compain about the after market parts. He just said that he could only do so much with after market parts being in there.

    As for my PM mail box, I was clueless that it was too full. Heck, I got mail from others after I requested you guys to post me mail on another thread. Again, my PM request was ignored and I know I got PM after that. That doesn't mean that it is not full now. I will clean it out when I get some more time.

    Ken, I have never talked to you on the phone. It has always been Victor or James. Each time they said that they would talk to you and get back to me. That does not happen for whatever reason. I think if that issue can be addressed, then some of these threads-out-of-control will stop. Now don't go and think I am slamming these guys! That is not what I mean here. I know you are busy and so am I. Our worlds intersect more than you think. I have to leave right now, but I will try to send an email using your address from the other reply. I wanted to try to stop this thread from going wild, that is why I responded here right now.

    KB, thanks for being on our board and for putting the time into getting us such a powerful blower. I look forward to my car running at its best so I can truely feel the true potential in this blower. I will do whatever I can to help find the problem. I feel that I have gone above and beyond what most people would have done (or spent) to make it easier to find the problem. In the end it might just be Kennedy's that finds it. I would hope that we could find it ourselves instead.

    Just in-case this helps, I have determined that the car will hitch LESS at a colder outside temperature, but it will ping more. At warmer outside temperatures, the car pings less, but the EGR hitching gets a LOT worse. Just another tidbit I have gleaned from trying to note everything I can to help. Oh, you also have my non-Stangnet email that can be used to get mail to me. You could have and can use that to communicate with me. Talk to you soon.
     
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  16. Michael Johnson

    Michael Johnson Founding Member

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    As for who tunes best, anyone doing a tune that is getting data from dyno pulls had better get more hp than someone that is sending a person a mail order chip. No two cars are equal and KB has to be conservative to accomodate the minor differences between them just like JMS or Fordchips does with mail orders. They don't get things right either and many times they reburn chips several times to get things right. One thing I will say on KB's behalf is I've not seen many complaints about the chips supplied with their blower kits for the 4.6L GT's. They also deliver impressive hp/torque numbers for mail order type chips. I bet KB could get just as good, if not better, hp numbers from Dig-Its car if they had it in their shop on a dyno.
     
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