Guessing why carbs make more power, Just looking at the way the air travels before it enters the engine. EFI's have to travel through the mass, tb, through the upper runners, then down to the lower to the intake ports of the heads. While carbs the air goes to the carb down to the intake to the intake ports of the heads. The air doesn't have to travel much to enter the cylinders (less chances of air turbulance[sp?]). That's my guess at least.
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nmcgrawj
Advanced Member
wytstang said:
Very good points...but what about when u run, i forget the name, but the intakes that have a carb looking intake, but its converted to fuel injection? I guess those setups still have more "bends" in them...
I believe you're referring to the "spyder" intakes. Those set ups are more for higher revving motors (unless it's a big block stroker). Your run of the mill 302-347 will need to spin pretty high to take advantage of that set up. While a 750 carb (jetted +/-) with the Edelbrock Torker II can still give you low end power while still providing a more straight shot to the intake ports.
Yes, carbs can make more HP!
but
They don't make the low end torque we enjoy with our long runner intakes.
MUCH ...... MUCH more simple to tune, lol.
Those were the good ole days when all you needed to tune was a little box of jets and a few springs for the dizzy.
Grady
but
They don't make the low end torque we enjoy with our long runner intakes.
MUCH ...... MUCH more simple to tune, lol.
Those were the good ole days when all you needed to tune was a little box of jets and a few springs for the dizzy.
Grady
xr8d302 said:
Like I said...27 HP with a change of jets...$10 in parts and $70 for the dyno and I walked away with 27 more HP to the wheels...Cheapest gain I have ever done.
As for the rear...I am in the process of getting axles, spool, c-clip elims, girdle, etc. Dont want to break an axle or chew up my brand new gears.
All I know is that the convenience factor of the carb is wonderful...emissions though...forget about it! Right now I trailer the car to the track down the street...but January I will re-register and insure it...then really have some fun...probably have the unit on it too!
Black95GTS
Active Member
nmcgrawj said:
Who cares about the dyno, take that mother to the track. A properly tuned fuel injected race motor will outperform a carbed race motor in the 1320, I'll put money on it.
As far as easy to work on... the carb wins hands down. Squeeze and stroke (don't know your name sorry) VERY impressive. I bet she rips on the street. Your T-5 hates your right now! If you can toss your dyno sheet up, I'd be interested in it.
Horsepower TV... there are guys here making 300rwhp with an out of the box Trick Flow top end kit. Thats about 350FWHP! I'd only take their word for it when it comes to subwoofers and neon kits. They are the autozone of car shows.
adam
Black95GTS said:
How much money?
I disagree...My same setup...all I did was put a carb on, picked up 4 tenths over fuel injected...and that was with a custom chip for my F/I motor.
Before the jet change the car went 11.70 corrected (12.01 uncorrected at 2710 ft)
27 more Hp and It should go 11's uncorrected. my old f/i combo with 150 hp wet unit only went 11.80 (uncorrected) since then I have changed the cam as well to optimize the carb and cubes. I also have done some suspension, resulting in probably close to a full sec of my 1/4 time.
So, still wanna put money on it?
Black95GTS
Active Member
SQUEEZE&STROKE said:How much money?
I disagree...My same setup...all I did was put a carb on, picked up 4 tenths over fuel injected...and that was with a custom chip for my F/I motor.
Before the jet change the car went 11.70 corrected (12.01 uncorrected at 2710 ft)
27 more Hp and It should go 11's uncorrected. my old f/i combo with 150 hp wet unit only went 11.80 (uncorrected) since then I have changed the cam as well to optimize the carb and cubes. I also have done some suspension, resulting in probably close to a full sec of my 1/4 time.
So, still wanna put money on it?
Yeah I would. I said a properly tuned FI motor would outperform a properly tuned carb motor. I say to you that your FI motor was not setup as well as your carb motor is. I do agree that a carb setup is much easier to get a great tune then a FI motor, which is why it seems like your carb setup is faster.
FI beats a carb hands down because fuel is delivered under pressure without the need of a vacuum signal to the fuel pump. This allows for better throttle response AND the engine revs easier. Furthermore, fuel is atomized better due to a consistent and controlled a/f ratio.
If you want to talk go-fast cars, how come all top fuel dragsters are fuel injected
If you got the impression that I'm talking down your setup, then I apologize, I think you have an awesome motor there and that wasn't my intention. Beats my grocery getter! But I still maintain that FI will beat carbs with a dead nuts tune all else being equal.
adam
moneypit94
Active Member
This is a very debated subject.
And I hate to disagree with you Black95GTS because i have a efi setup but the fact is (been proven many times on the flow bench that you can get so much more air down a carb then you can a NA efi setup. No matter how you look at it airflow = power. And when your working with a 2000 rpm range (as you are in dragracing it isn't much to tune that small of bandwitdth with the right jets)
All around peformance give me a EFI setup.
I will see if i can't find the article on HARDCORE5.0 where they bench tested to see the flow numbers on a complete setup. You will see JAy Allen and a few other guys that make a living out of this kinda stuff say that carbs flow more which = more power.
I use to think the same thing as you, but slowely i have converted back. I would never want a carbed car for the streets (fuel ecconomy) though. (Im talking strictly NA)
Its been quoted quite a few times that Warren Johnson after much dyno testing says that carbs are just faster. You will find other quotes im sure going the other way
http://www.pro-system.com/scoop92102.html
http://bbs.hardcore50.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=29122&highlight=throttle+body
Its an application deal too.
And I hate to disagree with you Black95GTS because i have a efi setup but the fact is (been proven many times on the flow bench that you can get so much more air down a carb then you can a NA efi setup. No matter how you look at it airflow = power. And when your working with a 2000 rpm range (as you are in dragracing it isn't much to tune that small of bandwitdth with the right jets)
All around peformance give me a EFI setup.
I will see if i can't find the article on HARDCORE5.0 where they bench tested to see the flow numbers on a complete setup. You will see JAy Allen and a few other guys that make a living out of this kinda stuff say that carbs flow more which = more power.
I use to think the same thing as you, but slowely i have converted back. I would never want a carbed car for the streets (fuel ecconomy) though. (Im talking strictly NA)
Its been quoted quite a few times that Warren Johnson after much dyno testing says that carbs are just faster. You will find other quotes im sure going the other way
http://www.pro-system.com/scoop92102.html
http://bbs.hardcore50.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=29122&highlight=throttle+body
Its an application deal too.
WHITE94COBRA
New Member
Carburators when properly tuned can and will beat a EFI car all day, all of my friends have different cars and the one we have the most trouble with is my buddy Nates 67 289 mustang, he has an edel. lower (air gap) and its topped with a demon 650 DBL carb... He can run us all day long, the only place we get him is higher in the rpm range... And the tuning is sooooo simple, re jet it and adjust the vaccuume advance and its all good.
I gotta jump in here on this one!
I always try to keep an open mind but ................
If we are talking about a dedicated RACE CAR where WOT conditions are the norm ............................
I'm gonna hang with the carb boys!
Grady
I always try to keep an open mind but ................
If we are talking about a dedicated RACE CAR where WOT conditions are the norm ............................
I'm gonna hang with the carb boys!
Grady
moneypit94
Active Member
This is a quote from Jay Allen when he got into a debate with one of the reps from accufab.
Here is the rest of the thread which was all about throttle body sizes.. Great stuff
http://bbs.hardcore50.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=26335
JAY ALLEN said:
Here is the rest of the thread which was all about throttle body sizes.. Great stuff
http://bbs.hardcore50.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=26335
BlackVert
15 Year Member
Black95GTS
Active Member
Alright, Jay Allen said I would have lost the bet. Jay Allen also said that he got kicked out of an NHRA track for running high 11s without a cage, when we know that you need below 11.49 before you need a cage. So take what he says with a grain of salt. Not that I will ever know more about cars then Jay Allen, I'm just saying.
I've done some googling on this and I have to admit that it seems you carb guys are right for a pure race car at WOT conditions as Grady specified... and thats really the only condition that we care about here. So I'm glad I never took that bet!!
But my question still stands, and is one of the reasons I take my position, why do top fuelers use fuel injection and not carbs?
I've done some googling on this and I have to admit that it seems you carb guys are right for a pure race car at WOT conditions as Grady specified... and thats really the only condition that we care about here. So I'm glad I never took that bet!!
But my question still stands, and is one of the reasons I take my position, why do top fuelers use fuel injection and not carbs?
BlackVert
15 Year Member
the top fuel guys have big a$$ positive displacement blowers strapped on their motors, don't they?Black95GTS said:
Black95GTS said:Yeah I would. I said a properly tuned FI motor would outperform a properly tuned carb motor. I say to you that your FI motor was not setup as well as your carb motor is. I do agree that a carb setup is much easier to get a great tune then a FI motor, which is why it seems like your carb setup is faster.
FI beats a carb hands down because fuel is delivered under pressure without the need of a vacuum signal to the fuel pump. This allows for better throttle response AND the engine revs easier. Furthermore, fuel is atomized better due to a consistent and controlled a/f ratio.
If you want to talk go-fast cars, how come all top fuel dragsters are fuel injected
If you got the impression that I'm talking down your setup, then I apologize, I think you have an awesome motor there and that wasn't my intention. Beats my grocery getter! But I still maintain that FI will beat carbs with a dead nuts tune all else being equal.
adam
This is in no way an attack at you...just like you said, your not down talking my combo and I am not down talking yours.
So...
Do you mean vacuum signal to the carb...because I have an electric fuel pump.
As for the a/f ratio...I dont have the dyno sheet in front of me but between 3500 and 6900 my a/f ratio was a steady number, fluctuating between 13.1 and 13.9 progressively. It was never erradic, and although it did change it changed a max of .8 between 3400 rpm.
I consider this to be pretty good.
If this car was my daily driver...forget it, It would still be f/i...I dont even know what my gas mileage is , however I get about 10 passes on a 1/4 tank...so basically BAD.
This is a track only car...untill january, then it will be back on the street but for short jaunts.
As for the top fuelers...like mentioned before...they have big ass blowers, plus they have like 2 injectors per cylinder...that gets injected straight into the cylinder-similar to a carbed setup.
My f/i motor was tuned WITH A CHIP, and as far as I know spot on...ran very well for the smog legal cam that it had...it was not big enough for the extra cubes, which is why I changed it later.
the 11.49 rule just came out, It was 11.99...I know because I got the boot last year for going 11.7X-11.8X
WhiteDevil
New Member
This is a really interesting thread. Learning a lot so far. I will never ditch my EFI just because i love the quick tuning ability i have with the TWeecer now, I DONT EVEN HAVE TO GET MY HANDS DIRTY! Once i get my wideband ill be in tuning heaven. But Carbs to rock. Good stuff guys.
WhiteDevil said:
Like I mentioned earlier...when the boost comes I WILL be using some sort of Stand alone engine management with a wideband...you are absolutey right...tuning heaven!...Until then, the plate on my setup should get me to go pretty good, until I either
A.-Break the block
B.- need more power/speed
OR
C.-Buy the wife an automatic for the car so she can drive it.
I love how everyone has great knowledge about all sorts of issues...I was not trying to start an EFI VS Carb war...just giving my numbers fom a proven combo. Thanks for everyones input :SNSign:
As soon as I get that alternator bracket made I wil take it to the track and give you guys some #'s
Black95GTS
Active Member
Whats up guys, I've been following just haven't been able to type a reply last couple days. If any of you ever deal with RW Beck at work, fire them immediately, they royally screwed up a design we contracted them for. Anyway...
I've found that top fuelers use mechanical fuel injection, which is apparently the best of both worlds. Which I was getting confused with electric fuel injection, because I was just reading fuel injection and not anything else, so my bad.
I still can't believe that carbs will beat EFI, even at WOT, but the majority of evidence seems to indicate they do. But in my quest to prove myself right I did end up learning a lot so despite being wrong, I consider it a victory none the less...? Whatever, next time we're at the bar first one's on me.
adam
I've found that top fuelers use mechanical fuel injection, which is apparently the best of both worlds. Which I was getting confused with electric fuel injection, because I was just reading fuel injection and not anything else, so my bad.
I still can't believe that carbs will beat EFI, even at WOT, but the majority of evidence seems to indicate they do. But in my quest to prove myself right I did end up learning a lot so despite being wrong, I consider it a victory none the less...? Whatever, next time we're at the bar first one's on me.
adam
BlackVert
15 Year Member
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