Starters suck. So does the aftermarket!

[Blue Thunder]

Well, I had to get that off my chest. I'm REALLY tired of starter issues in my II. lol Back when I had the stock starter, never had issues, but when I built the stroker engine, and had to run a full size oil pan to clear the stud girdle, everything went to hell with the starter. The stock piece would no longer fit, so I turned to a Mcleod mini starter, which ended up tearing the teeth off 2 flexplates. Then I went with a OEM 1995-ish GT small starter, it proceeded to tear up a flexplate. So now, I'm working on the II again, and have the trans out to get freshened up by Dynamic Racing, and yet another flexplate ready to install. But this time, I'm taking careful measurements of everything. First thing, this new mexico-made flexplate looks decent, until you closely examine it. Where they tacked the ring gear to the plate, there is welding beads stuck to it, and there was a large bead stuck right to the damn gear tooth, and a smaller bead stuck to another gear tooth. Damn I'm glad I checked it. Always examine your new parts carefully. I used my jewelry lens and a tiny file to remove all traces of the offending weld bead. That would've been ugly had I not spotted it, the first time I hit the starter. In the attached pics, there is a prominent weld bead stuck to the plate, harmless enough, but the one on the tooth wasn't so benign. In the 2nd pic, upper portion of the tooth, you can see where the bead has been filed off. It wasn't small, nor was it easily removed. It had tack welded itself firmly in place on that tooth. (Always check for this! you do not want the starter grinding over a weld beady, similar to a BB in a gear set)
Now to my 2nd issue. Figuring out exactly what size this mex-flex really is, in relation to the oem Ford-flex. The aftermarket piece is 11.906" diameter of the ring gear. The listing shows it should be 11.975", which, if true, would mean there is extra clearance between the starter pinion and ring gear teeth, not a good thing. Does anyone have an EXACT measurement of the OEM flexplate diameter? I'm very curious if that is causing issues in itself.
The next issue... The old torn up flexplate has marks showing the starter pinion only engaged about 70% of the ring gear teeth, not good. It also reveals that the mesh isn't very tight either, with wear marks only about 50% up the ring gear teeth. An indicator that there might be too much clearance between the pinion and ring gear. I want this thing to be perfect, and I know it's possible with some care. Anyone have input on related issues with starter/flexplate meshing properly/improperly due to aftermarket cra.. er, stuff? I would appreciate any opinions.

 

[LILCBRA]

Welcome back!! I'm excited to see your car is still around!!

As far as your problem goes, I don't have any experience. I will say that I've swapped to a later model starter, too, and I've not had any issues - but I'm still running a stock flywheel. There are so few of us in here anymore, I'm not sure anyone will be able to help with this particular issue. Fingers crossed, though - you never know!

 

[LILCBRA]

Gotta tag @MustangIIMatt

Then we gotta talk him into another II - he got rid of old ElSuperPinto.....

 

[Blue Thunder]

I think I figured something out with the starter today. While the C4 is out of the car, I used my spare V8 bellhousing, bolted it temporarily to the engine with the new flexplate, and I took the solenoid off the starter, and taped the bendix so it was in the full engaged position. I then crawled under the car with a light and my phone to peer inside the bellhousing opening to see exactly wth is going on with the starter. As I expected, the starter teeth aren't engaging far enough. I wonder if my eagle 4340 forged crankshaft has a thicker flexplate flange on it, than the OEM iron crankshaft has. It would explain the greater flexplate depth. I need the starter to go about 1/8" further into the bellhousing. The flange of the starter is thin, so I can't just have someone mill off .125" from the mating surface, otherwise, that would be an easy fix. I'd have to weld up the stupid aluminum starter flange first, then have it milled. ugh.

 

[LILCBRA]

I remember seeing something somewhere about different depths of starter gears, I'll see if I can find it....

 

[LILCBRA]

That didn't take long..... You can check out the thread links in one of my old posts, maybe that can help shed some light for you.

You've brought up an aspect that I don't think has been explored in a long time - at least I don't remember it being mentioned anywhere. I did some more searching and found a couple threads that might be relevant.

In this thread, Gael mentioned that he counted his drive teeth and found that his had 9 teeth.

Will a PMGR starter work on a manual flywheel?

I have the flywheel that came with the 302 V8, and the Rad4.. would the PMGR starter work with that? My starter has 9 teeth, the PMGR has 10. I'm having a bad feeling now that it won't work, does anyone know of a smaller sized starter that works for the manual flywheel? Thanks for any...

stangnet.com

Then, a couple months later, he posted this thread and said that both his starter and a new mini starter that he went with had 10 teeth.

Those with manual V8 flywheel, there is a mini-starter

I lucked out upon one when I was searching for a mini starter, instead of using mine. I bought mine from Don's Hotrod Shop in Tucson, AZ. A local performance parts shop. I counted the teeth on my old starter, and this starter, and they both had 10 teeth, and the distance apart seemed similar...

stangnet.com

Another couple of threads mentioned a couple of different things. First, there was this thread talking about the different cone depths.

V8 starters, revisited

Okay guys, what is the latest verdict on V8 Mustang II starters? IS there a II specific starter, or not? My brother has had constant issues with eating starters and ring gears for a while now on the Pro-Street 74. He's tried multiple starters, two bellhousings, two flywheels, and endless...

stangnet.com

Then, there's this thread which states in post #6 that the automatic flexplate has 141 teeth whereas the manual's flywheel has 148 teeth.

https://stangnet.com/mustang-forums...rters-work-with-our-smaller-flywheels.502778/

Then, there's this one that mentions the gear pitch which makes a lot of sense if you think about it.

Starter Madness

HI fellow stangnet MustangII owners, We need to start a thread on what plagues the C4 automatic V-8 starting system of our Mustang II's. I have purchased 3 bellhousing, 3 flywheels and 5 staters without any change in the terrible grinding at startup. Can any of you come up with solutions or...

stangnet.com

Then, finally, we have Matt's suggestion for using a late model Fox or SN95 starter when using a larger oil pan.

Fitting a Milodon 8-qt oil pan

I've been asked before what it takes to fit the Milodon 8-qt oil pan into a II. The answer, surprisingly, isn't much. The first thing you need to do is ensure you're running a low-profile intake manifold and air cleaner, unless you want to cut the hood. Then you will need to replace the stock...

stangnet.com

Now, it seems that most of the problems people have with starters concerns using them with the automatic's flexplate. In one of those linked threads someone made mention of having a manual and being able to get a starter that would work at any time. And, in my experience, I think that's most likely true. I don't remember having any of the problems that I see mentioned all over - but then again, I've not had an automatic transmission since the mid 90s. SO - what I think I might try is Matt's suggestion and go with a Fox starter. I know they're a little smaller than the stocker and shouldn't be some outrageous price compared to an aftermarket high torque mini. Looking at this guy here:

Amazon product ASIN B001O07M88
View: https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001O07M88/ref=ox_sc_saved_image_2?smid=APDXIEMX0ZAGX&psc=1
Looks like I'll be going through all of my steps again that I documented here.

 

[Blue Thunder]

The old gear reduction starter I ran in the 2000s, a McLeod unit, was amazingly well built, but it ground the first flexplate up rather quickly, and was even worse than the 1995 GT mini starter I replaced it with. I just measured and compared those 2 starters, and the McLeod, is in fact, even shallower than the OEM 1995 ford unit. That would explain why it was even worse. The bright side, the McLeod only has about 1000 miles on it, and the flange is definitely thick enough to mill.

 

[Blue Thunder]

I'm actually running a standard size passenger car front sump Milodon pan, as it was required to clear the billet steel stud girdle in my engine. I removed the power steering setup and replaced it with a manual pinto rack with a pinto steering rag joint.(that shed 35 lbs, too) and a mini starter is needed to clear that big pan, too, it's about 1/4" from the pan when the starter is installed. The number of teeth on the starter is correct, as the distance from the starter gear to the flexplate teeth looks correct.(the mesh, as can be checked with some white paint on the teeth, like you would on a ring and pinion in the axle) It's the depth that is the issue. If your starter is too far from the flexplate, (like mine is) the bendix throws the gear out to engage the flexplate, and since it's too far, the starter gear is already moving way too fast by that time, and it grinds like hell upon striking the flexplate teeth. On the opposite end, if the starter is too close to the flexplate, then the bendix will try to throw the starter gear out to engage the flexplate, only it's so close, that the gear hasnt even begun to spin yet, and that can cause the gear to just not engage the flexplate at all, like hitting a wall. So proper starter depth is critical.

 

[LILCBRA]

So you're still running the II flex plate and bell? I guess I kinda lucked out in this regard when I stuck with a manual transmission. I've not had any starter issues to speak of in YEARS. The last issue I had, which was recently, was that the trigger wire from the solenoid to the starter wasn't conducting anymore for whatever reason. The fix was running a larger gage wire. Beyond that, way back when I did have an auto II, I never had the pleasure of having to mess with the starter.
So, my recommendation - MANUAL TRANSMISSION SWAP!! Besides, they're more fun too.....


Seriously though, if that McLeod unit can be made to work, it sounds like it might be your best bet. Otherwise I think you'd be playing guessing games with what would work from what vehicle for anything from a parts store.

 

[Blue Thunder]

I had a MII 4-speed in the car back around 1992, it didn't last the summer behind the 300hp 302 I had in it, then I swapped in a T5, and it blew up the input shaft bearing, I swapped in another T5, that one broke something in the gear box, then I went C4 auto again, and blew up a bunch of those over the years, finally I found Dynamic Racing, who built my C4 that can handle over 1000 hp, and I haven't broken it so far. It's a manual valve body, so I get to shift gears with a ratchet shifter, without dealing with the clutch pedal.(I drove trucks for 2 million miles, I HATE driving stick shift cars now lol) But preference aside, I'd still have the same issue with a manual gearbox, as I believe it stems from the aftermarket steel crankshaft. I was reading into powermaster, and they do make custom depth starters for application, if all else fails.

 

[LILCBRA]

Yeah, I toasted my original 4 speed too. I'm running a T5 from a 95 GT now, but my 302 isn't nearly as strong as your engine - 265 to the wheels.....

 

[LILCBRA]

For reference, I've found this if it helps:

Here's the link:

chrome-extension://oemmndcbldboiebfnladdacbdfmadadm/https://www.tuffstuffperformance.com/file/30474-Ford+Starters+Technical+Information.pdf

It's from this site:

www.tuffstuffperformance.com

 

[Blue Thunder]

Thanks for that info, I am saving all these links on my PC. lol

 

[MustangIIMatt]

A '93 Mustang 5.0 Starter with a Dorman starter shim for Ford 302/5.0 works. That's what ElSuperPinto had.

 

[2Blue2]

Starter stuff I’ve saved
Ford small block starters are a can of worms...

 

[Blue Thunder]

I tried a new starter from autozone for a 1995 GT, same exact grinding sound, and it shaved some metal off the new ring gear teeth. So I went back to an old McLeod starter from around 2000, same exact grinding sound. I drilled a slightly larger hole in the starter flange, and filed the mounting edge slightly too, so the starter mesh depth can be adjusted, same exact grinding sound. Soooo.... 3 flexplates, all similar brand, made in mexico, 3 starters, 2 stock, 1 aftermarket, 2 different bellhousings, all make the exact same sound. I really need to know a precise diameter of an OEM flexplate, since I cant find one for sale anywhere, and it's not showing up anywhere on google, I might be sht out of luck.
How is it possible to change 100% of the parts, some more than once, and have the exact same grinding sound?

 

[Blue Thunder]

I've been studying starters/flexplates/gear mesh/etc a lot. I now understand why my old mini starters would grind like crazy and tear up the flex plate teeth. There is way too much clearance between the gears! I got another new flexplate and a powermaster mastertorque starter. (made in USA) first off, this starter appears to be very well made, and after taking some measurements, the flange that fits into the starter alignment hole of the bellhousing is perfectly machined. I had to wiggle the starter to slide it into the bellhousing, and when in place, there was zero movement side to side. The new starter came with a 10tooth pinion that is 1.155" diameter, which is substantially larger than the previous oem starters and even the expensive mcleod starter, which were both 9Tooth and only 1.05" diameter. So that's .105" larger than the previous pinions, and after test fitting it in the bellhousing, there is still too much clearance between the pinion gear and the ring gear. There should be at most, .030" clearance, which about the size of a paper clip. Now there is more than .065", probably somewhere around .085 clearance, but I havent nailed down the exact number yet, that is tomorrow's task. There IS a 12 tooth pinion available for the PM starter, which is 1.25" diameter, which is .095 larger than the 10T pinion, meaning, it would reduce the mesh clearance by half that, which is about .047". That might be close enough to work effectively, not perfect yet, but far better than what it was before. lol
I think I will bolt the block plate by itself to the back of the engine, which is in the car, (transmission is out, waiting to drop it off at Dynamic for a freshen up) Once the block plate is secured in place to the engine, and the new flexplate is installed, I will be able to play with the new starter in the alignment hole of the block plate, using bolts to secure it, and super easy to take measurements and experiment that way, without the bellhousing in the way. In case anyone was wondering, they do make a nifty offset cam type bushing for the starter bolt hole, to adjust the mesh clearance, it would require removing material from the block plate alignment hole, or using a shim, but powermaster suggested it as a solution. https://www.atfspeed.com/ford-starter-cam-bushing.html
And if anyone happens to have an original oem 302 Mustang II automatic starter, I would love to get some measurements of it, such as pinion tooth count(should be 9) and diameter, as well as the distance from the edge of the mounting flange to the center point of the pinion shaft. For whatever reason, it seems the original II starters had more of a pinion offset, which brought it in closer to the flexplate ring gear and gave them the proper .030" or so mesh clearance.

 

[Blackhawkxx]

So what I'm hearing is, if we have an issue with the starter, have it rebuilt or do whatever it takes to keep the same one.

Thanks for the info, it may help others down the road.

 

[MustangIIMatt]

So what I'm hearing is, if we have an issue with the starter, have it rebuilt or do whatever it takes to keep the same one.

Thanks for the info, it may help others down the road.

I got that same advice years ago on small block Chevy starters. It's served me well for both Ford and GM.

 

[manicmechanic007]

The starter drives had a few differences, tooth count and size mainly
You might try to check the specs of a few starter drives
Like the difference between a SD 302 and a SD 301 or a Ford C4TZ-11350-B
The Ford drives last quite a while
The aftermarket ones are junk IMO. I put three remans on my Corvette in 2 years