The Blower Thread

Discussion in '1979 - 1995 (Fox, SN95.0, & 2.3L) -General/Talk-' started by 84Ttop, Feb 4, 2015.

  1. You guys asked for it so here it goes, @85rkyboby @TOOLOW91 @Old Skooler @A5literMan


    So let’s talk Vortech for a few minutes here…

    There has recently been more than a few questions about some of the Vortech products and what blowers are right for your application. What makes one model different from the others? Hopefully I can explain that all to you here.

    Let’s start with the basic different trim levels:

    V1 - This blower has a 3.45:1 step up ratio with straight cut gears and is engine oil fed. The V1 series is available in several different compressor trim stages: SCi, Si and T

    V2 - This blower has a 3.61:1 step up ration with helical cut gears and is also engine oil fed. This series is considerably quieter due to gear design and provides a slightly steeper step up ratio. The V2 series is also available in several different compressor trim stages: SCi, Si and T

    V3 - This blower features the same 3.61:1 step up ratio and helical cut gears as the V2 but is self-lubricating. This has recently been the go to head unit for most street applications due to ease of installation and maintenance. The V3 series is also available in several different compressor stages: SCi and Si

    V7 - This blower has the 3.45:1 step up ratio and straight cut gear design similar to the V1 series but with higher speed bearings. This unit is only available in engine oil fed models. The V7 series blowers are available in the Ysi and JT compressor configurations with the JT being only available as a CCW rotation unit.

    All of the above mentioned blowers (with the exception of the JT trim) are available in curved and straight discharge models and available in CW and CCW rotation units. All of the above referenced head units feature the same physical bolt patterns and will easily interchange in the same bracket system.

    V20 - This blower features a 4.21:1 step up ratio and is only offered in oil fed models. There are several different trim levels from the V27-Ysi to the V28-123 and everything in between. These blowers have a robust bearing case and completely different transmission housing when compared to the rest of the lineup. These are very heavy duty race blowers with very expensive and highly developed bearing packages and can support upward of 4,000+ HP. This will not typically be a blower for the street warrior and will only be found on some of the most serious drag cars and extreme effort street cars.

    About compressor stages:

    Compressor stages are designed to handle different levels of power and all make power differently when compared to one another. While I will list what they are rated for, we can later discuss where these compressor stages apply best to certain applications.

    SCi - The SCi compressor stage is Vortech’s beginning stage and offered in their most base model blower kit for the fox body. While this blower can support up to 725 HP, it is rarely used in that capacity. This blower flow 1050 cfm and is 75% efficient.

    Si - This is the most popular compressor stage that you see in the fox body market and really is the go to in my opinion. This compressor will support up to 775 HP, flows 1150 cfm and is 78% efficient. While most people do not run this unit to the maximum level it has a lot of potential and with the proper supporting parts will live up to its expectations.

    T - This compressor stage has recently under gone some redevelopment. The T trim of years past will support 825 HP and the newly redesigned compressor, the Ti will support 950 HP. This blower flows 1400 cfm, is 75% efficient and is great choice for your extreme street car build as well as killer track combination.

    JT - While this is typically found on the modular motors it still has a place and is worth mentioning. This compressor will support 1,000 HP and flows 1,450 cfm at a 75% efficiency rating.

    Ysi - This compressor is the one that has been there and done that and won’t be going anywhere for a long time to come. The Ysi supports 1,200 HP, flows 1,600 cfm and is 78% efficient. This blower is found on quite the number of extreme mustang builds and race cars alike. While final data has not been released there is a new Billet wheel upgrade for the Ysi adding the designation Ysi-b. This upgrade is worth at least 200 HP putting this blower in the 1,400+ HP range and should really be a shining start both on the street and at the track in coming months.

    A final few thoughts:

    So what makes the V7 and V27 Ysi blowers different? The compressor stages are identical leaving only the bearing housings/transmissions to change.

    Are there other blowers out there? Sure thing, Vortech has a long history and has a lot of older units that are out of production still out running on the street. It isn’t unlikely to run into an old A trim or even a ball driven SN89

    What about the bigger blowers? They have them and I would be happy to answer any questions that you have or provide more information on them. I only briefly touched on the V20 series since it does not apply to the broad base of street cars and street warriors out there.

    I hope this was helpful and look forward to discussing the questions that you guys have. Keep in mind that this is only one part of the market. Paxton a subsidiary of Vortech has their entire line of blowers that we didn’t even touch on. Procharger has a market share in the industry here and to be frank I am not well versed on their product. I would welcome any technical information that anyone could provide on their products or others. Kenny Bell and Whipple, we didn’t forget you either. I would prefer this to be a beginning to some sort of supercharger resource and would like to avoid the Nitrous vs Turbo vs Blower discussions here if possible.

    Thanks,

    Nick

    @madspeed Let me know if this should have been in Tech or if Talk is the right place for this
     
  2. Thanks @84Ttop :nice: could you possibly explain cfm=effiency ratings. For example over/undersized pulleys for a given head unit and its effects on performance and durability. I personally understand spinning the bejesus out of one but would like to understand the opposite effect of "detuning" the blower(for example trying to run a YSi on a stock block in a low boost configuration)
     
    madspeed likes this.
  3. Good little bit of info Nick, thanks for putting it together. How are the efficiency ratings in comparison to boost pressure and does it make sense to add some boost numbers to each?
     
  4. I hope this doesn't offend anyone but everyone I've known that had v2's and the like have always upgraded to the Ysi

    I don't know of anyone thats been content with anything less

    My daily driver (for this week only) is a 393w with a v2 si maxed out, it only makes about 560rwhp (non intercooled on pump gas), not enough for anything useful IMO

    not to offend anyone but I've always been a straight to the point no BS poster, just posting my experiences not trying to offend
     
  5. @84Ttop
    Great write up. Would intercooler talk dilute the SC thread? Such as, at what point is it beneficial to intercool a SC car? Is it even necessary?

    Super charger question: Which is better, self oiled or engine oil cooled? I know one is more work and some people don't like the idea of tapping a hole in their oil pan to run an oil line but which is better in the end?
     
    85rkyboby likes this.
  6. Sucks for you that you're not easy to please but 560rwhp to me is not like watching paint dry. That's a lot for a street car especially for a Fox and you couldn't punch the smile off my face with that kind of power. :)
     
  7. Shows how much times have changed. Back about 15 years ago I had an 85 that made 550rwhp that did low 10's I.t was a terror on the street and more than enough to keep me in smiles. Amazing that folks today find that boring.
     
    Davedacarpainter and A5literMan like this.
  8. Thanks @84Ttop ! Really a great thread to start, everyone should know this stuff and now they will.
     
  9. @84Ttop. Thank you that was awesome . Now my next question is what are the specs on say a v1 s trim and do we think i can get it to 600 with my combo ?

    @Decipha I have friends that are real close to me that were making 540 or so with an s trim in 94-95 so that sounds odd IMO .
     
  10. Thanks
     
  11. I'd like to know the answers to these questions as well if y'all don't mind.
     
  12. Where to start, lol

    In concern to boost numbers and to answer @madspeed 's question first, I didn't post boost numbers for a reason. While Vortech and other companies post maximum boost numbers that does not necessarily mean that anyone will see that given maximum even at maximum impeller speed. There are may instances where a motor can make more power with less boost while using the same head unit and compressor. Take a stock block E7 headed motor with an Si trim and pump 20 lbs of boost into it. (Maybe we have done this before, hahaha) and compare that to a Stock block 302 with a set of 205cc heads and good induction system and 6 or so lbs of boost. You will likely make the same HP. The boost pressure that you see is merely a way to measure restriction through the motor. Camshaft design can even play a role in boost pressure, so for these reasons I didn't mention anything about boost pressure.

    As far as efficiency goes there are a few factors that go into this. While they list peak effeciancy many of us use these blowers outside of that range for a greater HP benefit. To simplify it, efficiency comes down to how well we can put the most dense air charge into an engine at a given impeller speed and this is where compressor maps come into play. If you compare one compressor map to the next you can see how and where different compressors operate in different effeciancy ranges. Vortech has a good (very technical) write up on blower effeciancy and compressor maps here: http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/pdf/papers/efficiency_paper.pdf

    To answer @A5literMan 's question, when you spin the "bejesus" out of a blower you typically run the compressor well outside of its effeciancy range. Any given compressor can only produce so much cfm and higher impeller speeds due to small pulley sizes do not always guarantee gains in hp. Spinning a blower too fast or too far outside of it's efficiency range will produce a lot of heat and result in a less dense air charge ( this is where inter cooling becomes even more relevant). At a certain point it needs to become a consideration that a bigger compressor stage run at a lower impeller speed will net the same cfm but at a much higher effeciancy. This equals more HP every single time. This is the primary reason that I don't recommend the Sci and opt right for the Si trim. While I have personally seen the Sci make 680 hp it was well outside of an ideal effeciancy range doing so. To use this direct comparison Sci vs Si, you will see more efficiency with the Si because the same amount of air can be moved at a slower impeller speed, creating less heat and more HP.

    @TOOLOW91 Can you make 600Hp with a S trim? Absolutely! We do this all the time and on a built motor it is easy to do anymore. This doesn't go to say that a Ysi spun a little slower wouldn't be better :) ( See above )

    Oil fed vs. self contained:

    This has become a debate recently with most other manufactures exclusively making self contained units. The following is strictly my personal opinion. Self contained units are great, hands down easier to install and very easy to maintain. For street applications it is the easy choice and one that I would make without hesitation. If you are a street warrior and see a fair amount of drag strip time along with street duty you will have no problems with a self contained unit. The oil fed units are better suited for all out drag applications and applications that see a lot of continuous duty like at the road course or even marine applications that see long periods of sustained high rpms. Cruising on the highway under no real load is a lot different than WOT around a road course for 30 minutes at a time. In the full out drag and other race applications bearing life in the blowers are significantly increased in oil fed units as the bearings are actually cooled by the engine oil.
    @FoxMustangLvr Is one better than the other? To answer you question, the application of the blower plays the biggest role in that decision. Every blower that I on a car that I own is oil fed at the moment (including my 2015 with a JT trim). I religiously race my cars and this was the best fit for me. If you street drive the car and occasionally race the car then a self contained unit would work perfectly, on the other hand if you see a used oil fed unit don't let that detract you as being a negative feature. ( used blowers is a whole different topic of discussion )

    Intercooling:

    There is certainly a place in the blower discussion for intercooling. Almost every car can benefit from an intercooler but there isn't any definitive point if which is becomes mandatory on a street car. Is it always practical, no and is it always a must have, absolutely not. Intercooling goes back to efficiency, when you compress the air in the blower you create heat which in turn increases your inlet air temperatures. Timing has to be reduced to avoid detonation when inlet temperatures get too high. Intercooling, by any method, cools that air and provides a more dense air charge. This can allow more timing for more hp and as discussed above, a more dense air charge will create more HP. The biggest reason you don't see the Vortech kit for the fox bodies intercooled is due to packaging. I can't imagine a new kit being designed to allow for an a2a intercooler. There is an a2w cooler available but it is pricey and the install is bulky and cumbersome. In race applications or even in higher hp applications intercooling is almost a must, I said almost. Depending on fuel choice and perhaps the addition of methanol there are other ways to get around cooling the air charge. We can get into great detail with intercooling quickly so let me now what exactly you guys want to hear.

    Did I touch on everything so far? Let's see where all of this goes
     
  13. Great add!
     
  14. just since im always trying to learn more...

    where does the XB105 and XB110 fall into this?
     
    TOOLOW91 likes this.
  15. @84Ttop I knew you were gonna say that LOL the YSI is on my list as soon as attainable .
     
  16. I wish one would "fall" into my hands!:D
     
    84Ttop and TOOLOW91 like this.
  17. Oh hey one more question nick Is the new billet impeller available in the standard style case ?
     
  18. The V7 case will accept a billet wheel. The majority of the billet wheel upgrades to the ysi's have all been V7's. If you pick up an older V7 you can have it upgraded no problem. As far as I know they have only made 4 V27Ysi-b's with more to come. The V27 is totally race oriented and there is only a small percentage of V27's compared to V7's. I can say that one of the first 4 billet wheel V27's will be on my Ultra Street ride this season ;)

    I do not adviste dropping these things.. You will certainly break a toe or two...

    Thanks!

    They fall into that same extreme category the we do Derek. 105 and 110 are inducer measurements, both blowers have the same gear case and transmission with just the volute and impeller being the difference. One interesting tid bit.. While the 105 is only available on a race case (V24) the 110 is offered in a V11 case, almost equivalent to a ysi case with a slightly different bearing package to handle the bigger wheel. The V11 physically bolts up to the same V3 or V7 brackets.

    Interesting note now that I think about it. Let's talk bearings... As the compressor stages increase in size so does the relative size and more importantly the weight of the impeller. This creates a need for bearings designed to handle more axial load. Some of these bearings are borderline exotic pieces to whitstand 70,000 plus rpms reliably. This all goes back to why the V7 case stands alone as a JT or Ysi (bearing design) and the V2 for example can handle Sci, Si and Ti duty.

    @srtthis did I cover what you were thinking?
     
    srtthis likes this.
  19. This was exceptional . All the info should go in to maybe a combined post as a sticky @Noobz347
     
  20. Lets ask one more question. What about the vortechs is that much different from the design of the procharger ? Or are they very similar in design ?