3 vs 2 point seat belts

[suki243]

So after reading that safety thread I began thinking about the 3 vs 2 point arguments.

I've read that a few people don't believe that 3 point seat belts aren't any better than 2 points. How come? I'm thinking of upgrading my 2 point seat belts to a 3 points with inertia reels. But after reading that thread i'm on the fence again.

What do you guys think?

 

[rbohm]

i believe in 3 point belts for a street car over 2 point belts, as long as they fit properly and have enough slack in the system.

 

[bnickel]

when i was talking about the 2 vs 3 point belts i was speaking from my own personal experiences, also keep in mind that now that my back is already screwed up and the fact that i had surgery on my left shoulder right where the shoulder belt would be that wearing the shoulder harness is painful for me, plus i don't trust them anymore because of what happened to myself and my friend. if i could afford it i would add a roll bar and 4 point belts to all my cars. as it stands though the lap only belt is my friend.

one of the reasons why i want to get a 68-71 ranchero to replace my daily driver lincoln town car, besides just needing a truck, is that they have the perfect place to use a 4 point belt system built in right under the rear window and in fact on cars equipped with 3 point belts the shoulder belt is already in that position, so i'd just need to replace that belt and add another on the other side of the headrest and have a nice reliable 4 point system without having to add a roll bar. you can buy 4 point DOT approved street belt systems now that have built in inertia reels and that is probably what i would use in the ranchero or in the cougar if i decide to add a shelby style roll bar in it.

 

[rbohm]

bnickle i actually agree with you in that 4 point belts are far superior to a 3 point belt, but the 3 point belt is better than the 2 point belt, as long as it fits properly. i also do agree that there are times when one system does the job better than another. i also agree that standard 3 point belts to put a lot of extra pressure on the shoulder it crosses, but again a big part of that is the fact that the belts dont fit properly.

 

[bnickel]

bnickle i actually agree with you in that 4 point belts are far superior to a 3 point belt, but the 3 point belt is better than the 2 point belt, as long as it fits properly. i also do agree that there are times when one system does the job better than another. i also agree that standard 3 point belts to put a lot of extra pressure on the shoulder it crosses, but again a big part of that is the fact that the belts dont fit properly.

my wife's escape has the adjustable shoulder belt and it will put out enough slack that just driving on the highway is fine, but stop and go in town stuff still hurts because every time you step on the brake the belt tightens up. and that's the main problem with most 3 point belts is that automatic tightening inertia reel. the original shoulder harnesses in the stang were at least adjustable and didn't have any kind of tensioner which made them more comfortable for driving but then there is the problem of not being able to adjust the radio, turn on the lights, etc with the harness on easily because of the lack of a tensioner. a good 4 point doesn't put the same stress on your back and shoulders as a 3 point and is obviously safer than just the lap belt but like i said you either need a roll bar or a ranchero/el camino type vehicle and maybe some pickup trucks

 

[brianj5600]

My 67 is in need of better seatbelts. It is all stock inside. With the seat all the way back and seatbelt tight, I can touch my forehead to the windshield. It would not be good in a front impact. Between the steering wheel and the windshield I would need some serious reconstructive and cosmetic surgery if I lived. The seat will be moved back and 5 point harnesses will be in it next time I drive it.

 

[gunnerdog]

Guys I have spent 8 years as a Police Officer. I can tell you 3 point seat belts DO make a big difference. Yes they might rub your neck and limit your movement but it is a lot better then losing the top of your head in a role or having your steering wheel punched thru your chest. I have seen it both and will not forget. It is even worse when your child trys to put things back together as in case 1 above. Food for thought. I did it in my 68 and it is the next mod for my 69. Make sure you always make it home even if your car dosen't.

 

[Rusty67]

Put some 4 or 5 point harnesses in it if you really want some safety.

 

[bnickel]

Guys I have spent 8 years as a Police Officer. I can tell you 3 point seat belts DO make a big difference. Yes they might rub your neck and limit your movement but it is a lot better then losing the top of your head in a role or having your steering wheel punched thru your chest. I have seen it both and will not forget. It is even worse when your child trys to put things back together as in case 1 above. Food for thought. I did it in my 68 and it is the next mod for my 69. Make sure you always make it home even if your car dosen't.

obviously you didn't read any of my posts on the subject

 

[zookeeper]

I really don't want to get into another full-blown fiasco, but here's two "observations". First, when I was about 11 years old, my neighbor had a neat '68 Charger. He went out with his buddies one night, and ended up rolling the car over on the freeway. My Dad was a fireman at the time and was on the scene. My neighbor was the only one wearing a seatbelt (3 point) and was the only one killed. The rest were thrown clear of the car, while the 3 point belt held the driver in the seat and the roof crushed him.
Another incident was when my brother was in a hospital recovering from a spinal injury. There was a 15 year old in the spinal injury wing of the hospital who was injured while riding in his grandparents older car. The car was only equipped with lap belts, it was involved in a frontal accident, and the boy hit his head on the dash, breaking his spine, severing his spinal cord and paralyzing him.
Personally, I have lap belts in my fastback, but next winter plan to put a Shelby-style roll car in the car and attach a newer-style retractable three-point belt to it. Lots of people argue the merits of one type of belt over another and that's fine. At least you're thinking about safety, but let's not let it get to the same level as the anti-helmet thinking that's prevalent in some motorcyclists. You know the type, "wearing a helmet will break your neck in a crash"... I suppose safety equipment is a lot like that 12 guage shotgun you keep in the closet, "just in case". The best defense is the one you never have to use.

 

[66forfun]

I would check with the state authorities before putting a 4pt harness in a normally registered vehicle. Funny thing is, in PA I dont think it used to fail a state safety inspection. A dot approved harness may have changed that and classic/antique plates may not have the yearly inspection requirement.

Safety for my 66 would include a 3pt upgrade, high back buckets and a grant wheel that has a smaller dia hole than the spearing shaft. But it would change the personality of my classic and I am hesitant to do that as of yet.

As far as being thrown to safety during a crash with no belt....good luck, I would take my chances with the lap belt over that.

All safety references here are coming from somone that spent most of his youth in the "carbon monoxide seat" facing rearward in a dodge station wagon and none of my 8 surviving brothers & sisters wore the safety belts provided. Getting sleepy just thinking about it.

 

[zookeeper]

I didn't mean anyone should not wear a seatbelt just because my neighbor died with one on. I guess what I meant was that maybe rather than rely on any safety equipment to save your life, you might want to try avoiding the accident altogether. Know what Eric Medlen, Scott Kalitta, and Dale Earnardt all have in common? They died in crashes, and they all had the best safety equipment money could buy. Ever ride in a commercial jet? This multi-million dollar peice of technology is equipped with lap belts that make '65 Mustang belts look high-tech. Why? Because all the seatbelts in the world won't help if you fall five miles out of the sky. Better to rely on skilful pilots to try to stay out of trouble. How about applying that thinking to cars? How about looking before you change lanes, or not following too closely. How about not drinking when you drive? All these behavior-based safety issues are worth more than any and all the airbags and seat belts you could buy, and they work everytime.

 

[bnickel]

i think what it comes down to is personal experience and preference....period. due to my personal experiences i choose to wear only the lap belt or no belt at all. believe me, i've been in accidents wearing no belt, lap belt and 3 point belt retractable belt and the only time i was injured at all i was wearing the 3 point, one of my best friends died because of the 3 point cutting off the circulation to his brain. i would prefer a good 4 point harness but at the same time i don't want my daughter to smash her skull on a roll bar if i should have a wreck with her in the "hot rod" with me.

i also wouldn't wear a helmet or just a small brain bucket when i used to ride motorcycles because the big full face or regular full size helmets would obstruct my peripheral vision and would prevent me hearing vehicles behind or next to me too. in fact in all the wrecks i've been in my life, motorcycle, car, three wheeler, etc the only serious injury i ever got was from using the stupid 3 point seat belts. so that really only proves my point that personal experience and preference are really the only things that matter. to hell with all the government mandated B.S. i'd pay the fine before i'd let them tell me i have to wear that stupid shoulder belt, though i do wear it when my daughter is in one of the "modern" cars with me.

 

[SNAKEPILOT]

believe me, i've been in accidents wearing no belt, lap belt and 3 point belt retractable belt and the only time i was injured at all i was wearing the 3 point,

though i do wear it when my daughter is in one of the "modern" cars with me.

bnickel,

Where your three accidents exactly the same circumstances? Do you think auto manufacturers have learned nothing from crash test dummies in frontal, offest, side impact, and rollover crash studies. Sure flukes happen but are you going to trust your life to an anomaly?

Planes have simple lap belts but mile for mile, the chances of a fatal aircraft accident are 1:100,000. For cars it's 1:300.

I don't think the belts in your wife's Escape are functioning properly. The only time they should be locking up is under heavy braking (or an impact).

Do you not want to set a "bad example" for your daughter?

 

[suki243]

Hey guys, thanks for chiming in with your opinions and experiences.

As for my decisions I'm going for 3 point belts, and possibly 4's if i can put in and hide it well with the rest of the interior. For the back seats i'm thinking of keeping the 2s. I concur with the helmet mentality. I don't trust the majority of drivers that here in LA. I have a lot of close calls not because i was speeding or wasn't paying attention but because the other driver is just being an idiot. I of course hope for the best but there's only so much you can do, my car's a weekend driver for the most part (i drive it to college which means home to school on Sunday night, sits in the garage till Friday night go out with friends then back to home for the weekend), so putting in a whole 5 point belt system and having an entire roll cage is pretty impractical.

As for mounting 4 points, does anyone know if you can mount them to the roof or is it too structurally unstable?
Also, I was thinking maybe if i got a tube installed up there directly connected to the roof but runs along the way the roof does, and get it painted white and attached the mountings points i could maybe pull of the original look while still having safety. If anyone's got any 4 points installed in which it looks nearly stock i'd be greatly appreciate pics and ideas.

 

[bnickel]

bnickel,

Where your three accidents exactly the same circumstances? Do you think auto manufacturers have learned nothing from crash test dummies in frontal, offest, side impact, and rollover crash studies. Sure flukes happen but are you going to trust your life to an anomaly?

Planes have simple lap belts but mile for mile, the chances of a fatal aircraft accident are 1:100,000. For cars it's 1:300.

I don't think the belts in your wife's Escape are functioning properly. The only time they should be locking up is under heavy braking (or an impact).

Do you not want to set a "bad example" for your daughter?

i've had a lot more 3 wrecks, mostly when i was in high school and shortly after, very few since, some were my fault, some were the other drivers' and some where i was a passenger and there have been enough very similar ones for me to form an accurate picture. the belts in the wife's escape are working fine they have been that way since day one. BTW, i did say that when my daughter is in one of the cars that has shoulder belts i do wear it, the stang doesn't have shoulder belts, at least not anymore anyway, they are in a box in the garage and willn go with the car when i sell it but i'm not going to reinstall them and when i replace the headliner in the cougar those are going into a box in the garage as well.

 

[cupcake]

Also, I was thinking maybe if i got a tube installed up there directly connected to the roof but runs along the way the roof does, and get it painted white and attached the mountings points i could maybe pull of the original look while still having safety. If anyone's got any 4 points installed in which it looks nearly stock i'd be greatly appreciate pics and ideas.

Yes it looks like this, only its in black

 

[tx65coupe]

I have a comment about seatbelts. Since the 65 has a non collapsable steering column, I don't think 2, 3, or 4 point belts would do much good if the steering column is in the back seat.

 

[Rusty67]

The spear-o-matic doesn't occour in all addicents. Seatbelts, especially a 4-point, will prevent injury in all cases. If you want to do upgrades based on playing the odds then I say seatbelt first, collapsable column second.

 

[tx65coupe]

I was just refering to a majoy headon collision. You are right though the death spear would definitely not be an issue in most accidents. It was just a thought.

Does anyone make a collapsable steering column for 65-66?

I don't see a good place to mount 3 point belts, and I don't want to modify my cars interior.