I'm now doubting the Kenne

Discussion in 'Fox 5.0 Mustang Tech' started by Shaolin Crane, Aug 1, 2009.


  1. Shaolin Crane

    Shaolin Crane Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2008
    Messages:
    5,610
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Kommiefornia
    i was so sure when i started building this car i wanted a PD type blower for the nasty torque and power band while road racing, but after months of research im not impressed with any of the dyno numbers i've seen, most well equipped engine around making around 415hp with the normal kenne bell setups
    ive done research both way about it air-air and air-water aftercoolers, but in the end i dont think my 750hp goal will be achived with a kenne bell, the other member on here was able to get some impressive temp numbers with his modded kenne bell but still has no numbers to show what they helped with, as far as i can see my engine with 18psi would only yield me 180-270hp extra over stock,
    engine i have is a 347 dart blocked stroker, mechanical roller cam, afr 185 race heads, long tubes, and all the stuff to make a pretty angry N/A engine, but in the end im afraid with that setup at 9.21:1 compression will still only get me in the 620rwhp range any clues as if i would be right or not?
    would a PD blower really make more usable power on a roadcourse over a high boost centri blower? any input is awsome
     
    #1
  2. 2000xp8

    2000xp8 Mustang Master

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2003
    Messages:
    5,469
    Likes Received:
    268
    Trophy Points:
    124
    Location:
    NJ
    I'd say even 620rwhp is quite the stretch, i've never even seen one crack 500rwhp.
    With a pretty good flowing long block like you are using, you are going to lose alot of boost.
    Basically you are exchanging aspirated power for NA power with the good engine setup you have.
    You need a supercharger that can keep up.

    I've seen alot of high hp cars (in person) on the dyno.
    To get the numbers you want you are going to need a big procharger, turbo's, or a vortech Ysi.
    Really takes alot to hit 700rwhp.
    This car is one of the better ones i've seen as of late. Stock computer.
    Big Daddy Performance | Outrageous Mustangs - Dyno, Turbos, Superchargers, Custom Chips, Tuning, Exhaust Roger Nogueria
    The other one i saw recently was a 347 SSC saleen, DFI, vortech YSi with a custom vortech aftercooler setup. Car made mid 700's to the wheels, on race gas. I say custom because i don't think the aftercooler was meant to be run on the ysi.
    As far as enough power for a roard course, i don't know if you are running in a class or something, or you just do it for fun. But your goals seem a little excessive (which there is nothing wrong with) but i'd doubt 600rwhp is going to run any different than 700rwhp.
     
    #2
  3. GTOreturns

    GTOreturns Active Member

    Joined:
    Oct 1, 2003
    Messages:
    1,320
    Likes Received:
    5
    Trophy Points:
    39
    Location:
    In the arm pit of America.(NJ)
    A bullet proof bottom end with just gt-40 heads & intake with a mild alphabet cam w/ the aid of a Hellion Turbo will net you 700+ HP depending on the boost you settle for. AND, it hooks in letting you keep the factory AC. :D
     
    #3
  4. Gearbanger 101

    Gearbanger 101 Straight Outta Locash Super Mod

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2002
    Messages:
    14,485
    Likes Received:
    950
    Trophy Points:
    164
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    Why such a horsepower concern? Are you trying to build a dyno queen? :shrug: I'd take the satisfying grunt and usable power band of a PD blower on a road course or the street over any other form of Power adder.

    But I agree.....if 750rwhp is your goal, then a Kenne Bell probably isn't for you.
     
    #4
  5. Shaolin Crane

    Shaolin Crane Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2008
    Messages:
    5,610
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Kommiefornia
    i dont really want a dyno queen, but id like some more impressive numbers than what ive been researching about, and its always cool to say you have a 750hp mustang
     
    #5
  6. 347_stang

    347_stang New Member

    Joined:
    Aug 1, 2009
    Messages:
    31
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Albuquerque NM
    seriously with that motor you should be getting a turbo.. like yesterday! 750 on low boost would be a realistic with the right turbo setup!!
     
    #6
  7. Shaolin Crane

    Shaolin Crane Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2008
    Messages:
    5,610
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Kommiefornia
    turbo is definitely out of the question, with an N/A motor i could easily walk many turbo cars on the road course
     
    #7
  8. ShortThrow50

    ShortThrow50 Member

    Joined:
    Oct 22, 2006
    Messages:
    985
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Location:
    Pa
    yeah that turbo lag will get to you
     
    #8
  9. 84Ttop

    84Ttop They make new pistons every day, so why worry? SN Certified Technician Mod Dude

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    3,301
    Likes Received:
    1,393
    Trophy Points:
    144
    Location:
    South Jersey
    First off, heads are too small to make that kind of power. I've seen 720rwhp on a 331 afr205 and ysi combo and that was around 18lbs of boost (non intercooled) if I remember correctly. Kick the kenne bell to the curb - Ysi All the way!!!
     
    #9
  10. Shaolin Crane

    Shaolin Crane Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2008
    Messages:
    5,610
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Kommiefornia
    well my kenne bell will be aftercooled in some way, and from the looks of the dyno sheets it seems that the ysi would be more of a drag oriented centri
     
    #10
  11. 90lxcoupe

    90lxcoupe Mustang Master

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2003
    Messages:
    3,450
    Likes Received:
    179
    Trophy Points:
    84
    Mabye if you had a 408, you could walk on a car with forced air. Alot of road cars do very well with around 400-500 hp, in the long run, i think the with what your trying to do, more powers gonna hurt you, whats the point of having a 750 hp car if its just gonna spin the tires?

    but if your set on that power goal, a nice 76mm turbo with the right sized housing would make for a kickass track car, and it will not be as peaky as with a centrifugal blower.

    the problem with the kenne bell stuff is that they dont make a blower big enough for a serious windsor motor. If you could figure out some way to get a 3.4L whipple from a lightning or a cobra on your motor that would be the way to fly
     
    #11
  12. Gearbanger 101

    Gearbanger 101 Straight Outta Locash Super Mod

    Joined:
    Aug 11, 2002
    Messages:
    14,485
    Likes Received:
    950
    Trophy Points:
    164
    Location:
    Ontario, Canada
    It's all that dead air coming out of the tight corners than hurts the turbo performance. Even a T76 set up with the most efficient housing and impeller design is still going to suffer from a certain amount of boost lag on the low end. And that few seconds down low when pulling out of those tight corners is crucial in a road race environment. And rarely are you going to have the kind of track length to make it up on the big end. No my friend....a turbo is probably the last power adder I would choose for any road race car!

    And I can't see how a Turbo would be less "peaky" than a centrifugal. A centrifugal power band is linear and RPM compliant. There are no surprises, or difficult spurts of power to control (unlike a turbo). And although not as massive on the low end, or as predictable accross the board as a Positive Displacement blower, a centrifugal still comes on more seamlessly and controllabley than any Turbo I've ever seen or experienced. :shrug:

    I do agree that a problem with the Kenne Bell blower is partly displacement, but what also has to be considered is that those big displacement 2.8L and 3.4L Twin Screw huffers don't even start seeing their adiabatic efficiency range until about 15psi. When you've got a built in intercooler to control the ACT, its not so noticeable, but when you're running around without an intercooler, those ACT temps (even while not under boost) can get pretty friggin high. Makes fore really inconsistent power and erratic timing curves.

    Its too bad nobody makes a nice Eaton kit for the OHV Mustangs anymore. They would be about ideal for open track stuff. An abundance of low end/mid range torque, far cooler and more controllable ACT's in the lower ranges and since the air compresses in the lower manifold and not in the unit itself like a screw compressor, they're not making any heat at all unless under boost.
     
    #12
  13. strtrcr50

    strtrcr50 New Member

    Joined:
    Jun 22, 2006
    Messages:
    2,559
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Previously from Dirty Jerzey exit 7a
    Just a personal thought here. Do you really think you will be able to use what you have from just the 347 on the track? You should have enough torque from the motor alone coming off the turns. At that point, once the revs start coming up, the centri will get the job done.
     
    #13
  14. 90lxcoupe

    90lxcoupe Mustang Master

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2003
    Messages:
    3,450
    Likes Received:
    179
    Trophy Points:
    84
    From my expierience i disagree with this, my car when it had a novi2000 on it did nothing until about 4000 rpms, there are plenty of guys that have turbos that are fully spooled up by 3500 rpms, and pull like a banshee till redline, and at the power level we are talking about, any power adder is going to be difficult to control.

    what would be BA would be something like an 03 cobra motor with a 2.8l KB or a whipple cranking out a RELIABLE 600 to the tires, never overheating or blowing gaskets
     
    #14
  15. Shaolin Crane

    Shaolin Crane Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2008
    Messages:
    5,610
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Kommiefornia
    yeah but think of the weight involved with doing a swap like that, i'd rather have a complete 03 termi instead of just the engine
     
    #15
  16. Shaolin Crane

    Shaolin Crane Banned

    Joined:
    Oct 6, 2008
    Messages:
    5,610
    Likes Received:
    1
    Trophy Points:
    0
    Location:
    Kommiefornia
    Like i said before, my kenne bell WILL be aftercooled in someway, either a2a or a2w
     
    #16
  17. 90lxcoupe

    90lxcoupe Mustang Master

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2003
    Messages:
    3,450
    Likes Received:
    179
    Trophy Points:
    84
    They dont weigh as much as you would think, and you can get a TEKSID aluminum block for cheap that will handle 750 hp. So your talking about 80lbs difference, but with the mod motor you will have the kind of HP you want with much less hassle, and theres many proven 750 hp mod motors with positive displacement blowers, but i've still yet to see anyone with a pushrod motor thats done it.

     
    #17
  18. S&B

    S&B I hate my CT. :(

    Joined:
    Dec 19, 2005
    Messages:
    6,189
    Likes Received:
    814
    Trophy Points:
    164
    Location:
    Cheesehead
    I have a 331 YSI with VIC JR heads and it made right under 700HP with meth on pump gas at around 17lbs of boost. Its polished PM me if you want any details, Im looking to go with a turbo.

    [​IMG]

    The only way to make 750+ is go with E85 and 160lbs injectors on the YSI or the Turbo.
     
    #18
  19. 2000xp8

    2000xp8 Mustang Master

    Joined:
    Aug 9, 2003
    Messages:
    5,469
    Likes Received:
    268
    Trophy Points:
    124
    Location:
    NJ
    Me personally, i think no power adder is the best way to go.
    They are all going to add difficulty, cost, and lose a bit of reliability on a road track.
    I don't care how you slice it, the KB on a 347 is never going to be all that great of a setup, you can only spin it so fast, intercooled or not. What's the point in running a supercharger if you aren't going to get big gains? Your 347 sounds like it's going to be capable of around 425rwhp NA set up correctly, so really, how much more are you going to get out of the kb? As i said above, i've never seen one even crack 500rwhp, lets assume you get that number, hardly worth the time effort or money for 75rwhp.

    Maybe a solid lifter and cam setup, with some jesel rockers?
    I post the question mark, because i truly don't know how that works out for road racing, but i've been in a 347 capable of 7500 rpm, that runs 10's all motor, and it's a pretty wicked setup.
    But i don't know how it translates into a road course car.
    Just throwing the idea out there.
     
    #19
  20. 90lxcoupe

    90lxcoupe Mustang Master

    Joined:
    Oct 8, 2003
    Messages:
    3,450
    Likes Received:
    179
    Trophy Points:
    84
    I think thats a pretty good idea myself, and if you go with a tight lash solid roller, you dont have to worry about valve adjustments all the time.
     
    #20

Share This Page