First heres my ignition system- msd pro billet dizzy, msd 6al-2 box, msd blaster 2 coil. Started a month ago car will start normal drive normal once temp reaches 180 car will shut off at any speed like key is turned with no restart for around 2 hours. When shut off happens i have no spark at spark plug or in between coil and dizzy, first thing i changed out was tfi still no good then i put a new msd blaster 2 coil (had a choice between msd or and accel coil at pep boys) that didnt do it. So i exchanged tfi for new one that didnt do it. Now i finally woke up and picked up a Equus 3145 code reader started car drove around till 180 degrees then pulled in garage shut car off waited couple minutes then start usuall after a minute or two car shuts off, these were the codes first 27 then 85, 67, 15. 27 is the code of interest 67 i think was i didnt hold clutch down during scan and 85 cause of stuff deleted on car. thanks any help appreciated driving me frikan nuts!
intermittent shut offs
- Thread starter 89stang1
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Blown88GT
Founding Member
I have the same code reader. Good choice!
15 is likely the key. You could be losing power to the EEC. Maybe the EEC Power Relay. It's located next to the EEC. You do know how to test a relay, don't you? Don't just replace it. If relay is good, it could be the ignition switch. BTW, all these diagrams are on my website.
15 is likely the key. You could be losing power to the EEC. Maybe the EEC Power Relay. It's located next to the EEC. You do know how to test a relay, don't you? Don't just replace it. If relay is good, it could be the ignition switch. BTW, all these diagrams are on my website.
Attachments
I have the same code reader. Good choice!
15 is likely the key. You could be losing power to the EEC. Maybe the EEC Power Relay. It's located next to the EEC. You do know how to test a relay, don't you? Don't just replace it. If relay is good, it could be the ignition switch. BTW, all these diagrams are on my website.
nice diagram! thanks for info......you dont think with the symptoms it could be msd box
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Blown88GT
Founding Member
no lol my bad i was just venting with all msd problems i fixed it on original post thx......i didnt mention i put a pip sensor in dizzy 2 months ago also
A little more info... when car is not starting the fuel pump primes for about a second or two like normal. When you turn key and bump starter for a second i dont hear fuel pump run only the initial prime you can hear pump run. I also read to try car with spout out to test pip would not start with spout out.
Blown88GT
Founding Member
Where did you get the replacement PIP? Did you disconnect and/or remove the MSD box?
If it won't start with SPOUT removed, it's probably the PIP or TFI. You set base timing with SPOUT removed. Remove SPOUT start engine.
I'm going through this now, long read thread is here: http://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums/threads/bad-codes.848261/
On a reman dizzy, I actually got a KOEO 14C - PIP circuit failure right out of the box.
All this aftermarket electronics is junk. Some of the factory stuff wasn't much better. There was a big class action suit against Ford about 20 years ago about the TFI's. They moved them from the dizzy to the fender mounted on a heatsink.
OBD-I is not as precise as OBD-II & may only give a clue as to what's wrong. There are no tests for the PIP itself, but there are some resistance tests for the TFI. Google "Probst Ford Fuel Injection". The book is at least as valuable as the code reader.
If it won't start with SPOUT removed, it's probably the PIP or TFI. You set base timing with SPOUT removed. Remove SPOUT start engine.
I'm going through this now, long read thread is here: http://www.stangnet.com/mustang-forums/threads/bad-codes.848261/
On a reman dizzy, I actually got a KOEO 14C - PIP circuit failure right out of the box.
All this aftermarket electronics is junk. Some of the factory stuff wasn't much better. There was a big class action suit against Ford about 20 years ago about the TFI's. They moved them from the dizzy to the fender mounted on a heatsink.
OBD-I is not as precise as OBD-II & may only give a clue as to what's wrong. There are no tests for the PIP itself, but there are some resistance tests for the TFI. Google "Probst Ford Fuel Injection". The book is at least as valuable as the code reader.
i thought to test pip you pulled spout if car ran with spout out then pip was bad? my pip is a napa better grade one made by elkin they sell that one and a cheaper one same thing with tfi there. I had different syptoms with pip car ran but had bad mis tach was jumping too. Have you ever gotten code 27 i would love to get more info on it cant find anything on it. MSD box still connected last thing im gonna check its wired in not using msd harness wires are in fender too
Blown88GT
Founding Member
Disconnect MSD box, only way to tell if it's the culprit. I disconnected my Crane Hi-6 & PS-91 coil, back toFord coil & all was the same. It doesn't get reconnected until problem is solved. i.e., Eliminate All Variables. I put SD computer back in & get no bad codes at all, still won't run under load.
If nothing else for you, get a Ford Motorcraft PIP. I'm getting the Motorcraft dizzy because my original is not rebuildable. If that's not the cause, it gets towed to the shop with a bag of money. If not fixed when money runs out, they can have the title. One of the online Ford dealers wanted $1000 for a Ford dizzy. I would send it to the junkyard before buying a $1000 dizzy.
If nothing else for you, get a Ford Motorcraft PIP. I'm getting the Motorcraft dizzy because my original is not rebuildable. If that's not the cause, it gets towed to the shop with a bag of money. If not fixed when money runs out, they can have the title. One of the online Ford dealers wanted $1000 for a Ford dizzy. I would send it to the junkyard before buying a $1000 dizzy.
i hear ya if i cant figure this out soon its going in just hate to bring it in without any answers$$$$$$$$
PIP sensor and TFI modle are 2 of the main causes for no start or misfire on a warm engine. As suggested, bypass the MSD system.
If you really want to find and fix the problem run the checklist below when the car won't start. If you use it correctly and not jump around or test just what YOU want to test, you will find the problem.
Cranks OK, but No Start Checklist for Fuel Injected Mustangs
A word about this checklist before you start: it is arranged in a specific order to put the most likely failure items first. That will save you time, energy and money. Start at the top of the list and work your way down. Jumping around will possibly cause you to miss just what you need to see to find and fix the problem. Don’t skip any steps because the next step depends on the last step working correctly.
Revised 28-Nov-2011 to update the Fuel pump test jumper diagram .
All text applies to all models unless stated otherwise.
Note: 94-95 specific changes are in red
1.) Remove push on connector (small red/blue wire) from starter solenoid and turn ignition switch to the Run position. Place car in neutral or Park and set the parking brake. Remove the coil wire from distributor & and hold it 3/8” away from the engine block. Jumper the screw to the big bolt on the starter solenoid that has the battery wire connected to it. You should get a nice fat blue spark.
Most of the items are electrical in nature, so a test light, or even better, a voltmeter, is helpful to be sure they have power to them.
No spark, possible failed items in order of their probability:
A.) MSD or Crane ignition box if so equipped
B.) PIP sensor in distributor. The PIP sensor supplies the timing pulse to trigger the TFI and injectors. A failing PIP sensor will sometimes let the engine start if the SPOUT is removed. See paragraph 5A – Using a noid light will tell if the PIP is working by flashing when the engine is cranking.
C.) TFI module: use a test light to check the TFI module. Place one lead of the test light on the red/green wire on the ignition coil connector and the other lead on the dark green/yellow wire on the ignition coil connector. If the TFI is working properly, the test light will flash when the engine is cranked using the ignition switch.
D.) Coil
E.) No EEC or computer power - EEC or computer relay failure
86-93 models only: EEC relay next to computer - look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires.
94-95 models only: EEC or PCM power relay in the constant control relay module. Look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires.
Both 86-93 and 94-95 models: No 12 volts with the ignition switch in the run position on the fuel injector red wires. The relay has failed or there is no power coming from the ignition switch. Make sure that there is 12 volts on the red/green wire on the coil before replacing the relay.
F.) No EEC or computer power - fuse or fuse link failure
86-93 models only: Fuse links in wiring harness - look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires. All the fuse links live in a bundle up near the starter solenoid. Look for a 20 gauge blue fuse link connected to 2 black/orange 14 gauge wires.
94-95 models only: 20 amp EEC fuse in the engine compartment fuse box. Look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires.
G.) Ignition switch - look for 12 volts at the ignition coil red/lt green wire. No 12 volts, blown fuse link or faulty ignition switch. Remove the plastic from around the ignition switch and look for 12 volts on the red/green wire on the ignition switch with it in the Run position. No 12 volts and the ignition switch is faulty. If 12 volts is present in the Run position at the ignition switch but not at the coil, then the fuse or fuse link is blown.
Note: fuses or fuse links blow for a reason. Don’t replace either a fuse or fuse link with one with a larger rating than stock. Doing so invites an electrical fire.
Ignition fuse links may be replaced with an inline fuse holder and 5 amp fuse for troubleshooting purposes.
94-95 models only: Check inside fuse panel for fuse #18 blown – 20 amp fuse
H.) Missing or loose computer power ground. The computer has its own dedicated power ground that comes off the ground pigtail on the battery ground wire. Due to it's proximity to the battery, it may become corroded by acid fumes from the battery.
In 86-90 model cars, it is a black cylinder about 2 1/2" long by 1" diameter with a black/lt green wire.
In 91-95 model cars it is a black cylinder about 2 1/2" long by 1" diameter with a black/white wire.
You'll find it up next to the starter solenoid where the wire goes into the wiring harness
I.) Computer.
J.) Bad or missing secondary power ground. It is located between the back of the intake manifold and the driver's side firewall. It supplies ground for the alternator, A/C compressor clutch and other electrical accessories such as the gauges.
K.) Engine fires briefly, but dies immediately when the key is released to the Run position. Crank the engine & when it fires off, pull the small push on connector (red wire) off the starter relay (Looks like it is stuck on a screw). Hold the switch in the crank position: if it continues to run there is a problem with either the ignition switch or TFI module. Check for 12 volts at the red/green wire on the coil with the switch in the Run position. Good 12 volts, then replace the TFI. No 12 volts, replace the ignition switch.
Wiring Diagrams:
See the following website for some help from Tmoss (diagram designer) & Stang&2Birds (website host) for help on 88-95 wiring Mustang FAQ - Engine Information Everyone should bookmark this site.
Ignition switch wiring
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/IgnitionSwitchWiring.gif
Fuel, alternator, A/C and ignition wiring
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/fuel-alt-links-ign-ac.gif
Complete computer, actuator & sensor wiring diagram for 88-91 Mass Air Mustangs
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/88-91_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif
Complete computer, actuator & sensor wiring diagram for 91-93 Mass Air Mustangs
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/91-93_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif
Complete computer, actuator & sensor wiring diagram for 94-95 Mass Air Mustangs
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/94-95_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif
2.) Spark at coil wire, pull #1 plug wire off at the spark plug and check to see spark. No spark, possible failed items in order of their probability: [/b]
A.) Moisture inside distributor – remove cap, dry off & spray with WD40
B.) Distributor cap
C.) Rotor
D.) Spark Plug wires
E.) Coil weak or intermittent - you should see 3/8" fat blue spark with a good coil
3.) Spark at spark plug, but no start.
Next, get a can of starting fluid (ether) from your local auto parts store: costs a $1.30 or so. Then pull the air duct off at the throttle body elbow, open the throttle, and spray the ether in it. Reconnect the air duct and try to start the car. Do not try to start the car without reconnecting the air duct.
Two reasons:
1.) If it backfires, the chance for a serious fire is increased.
2.) On Mass Air cars, the computer needs to measure the MAF flow once the engine starts.
If it starts then, you have a fuel management issue. Continue the checklist with emphasis of fuel related items that follow. If it doesn’t, then it is a computer or timing issue: see Step 4.
Clue – listen for the fuel pump to prime when you first turn the ignition switch on. It should run for 5-20 seconds and shut off. To trick the fuel pump into running, find the EEC test connector and jump the connector in the Upper RH corner to ground. The EEC connector is near the wiper motor and LH hood hinge.
If the relay & inertia switch are OK, you will have power to the pump. Check fuel pressure – remove the cap from the Schrader valve behind the alternator and depress the core. Fuel should squirt out, catch it in a rag. Beware of fire hazard when you do this. In a pinch, you can use a tire pressure gauge to measure the fuel pressure. It may not be completely accurate, but you will have some clue as to how much pressure you have. If you have any doubts about having sufficient fuel flow/pressure, rent a fuel pressure test gauge from the auto parts store. That will tell you for sure if you have adequate fuel pressure.
4.) No fuel pressure, possible failed items in order of their probability:
A.) Tripped inertia switch – Coupe & hatch cars hide it under the plastic trim covering the driver's side taillight. Use the voltmeter or test light to make sure you have power to both sides of the switch
B.) Fuel pump power relay – located under the driver’s seat in most stangs built before 92. On 92 and later model cars it is located below the Mass Air Flow meter. Look for 12 volts at the Pink/Black wire on the fuel pump relay.
C.) Clogged fuel filter
D.) Failed fuel pump
E.) 86-90 models only: Blown fuse link in wiring harness. Look for 12 volts at the Orange/Lt Blue wire on the fuel pump relay.
91-93 models only Blown fuse link in wiring harness. Look for 12 volts at the Pink/Black wire on the fuel pump relay.
The fuse links for all model years 86-93 live in the wiring harness near the starter solenoid.
94-95 models only: 20 amp fuel pump fuse in the engine compartment fuse box. Look for 12 volts at the Dark green/yellow wire on the constant control relay module.
F.) Engine seem to load up on fuel and may have black smoke at the tailpipe. Fuel pressure regulator failed. Remove the vacuum line from the regulator and inspect for fuel escaping while the pump is running. If fuel is coming out the vacuum port, the regulator has failed. Check the regulator vacuum line for fuel too. Disconnect it from the engine and blow air though it. If you find gas, the regulator has failed.
5.) Fuel pressure OK, the injectors are not firing.
A.) The PIP sensor in the distributor tells the computer when to fire the injectors. A failing PIP sensor will sometimes let the engine start if the SPOUT is removed.
A noid light available from any auto parts store, is one way to test the injector circuit to see if the injectors are firing. The noid light plugs into the fuel injector harness in place of any easily accessible injector. Plug it in and try to start the engine: it will flash if the injector is firing.
B.) I like to use an old injector with compressed air applied to the injector where the fuel rail would normally connect. I hook the whole thing up, apply compressed air to the injector and stick it in a paper cup of soapy water. When the engine cranks with the ignition switch on, if the injector fires, it makes bubbles. Cheap if you have the stuff laying around, and works good too.
D.) Pull an injector wire connector off and look for 12 volts on the red wire when the ignition switch is on.
E.) No power, then look for problems with the 10 pin connecter (salt & pepper shakers at the rear of the upper manifold).
See the graphic for the 10 pin connector circuit layout.
The injector power pin is the VPWR pin in the black 10 pin connector.
F.) No power and the 10 pin connections are good: look for broken wiring between the orange/black wire on the EEC relay and the red wire for the 10 pin connectors.
G.) TPS voltage exceeds 3.7 volts with the throttle closed. This will shut off the injectors, since the computer uses this strategy to clear a flooded engine. Use a DVM, a pair of safety pins, and probe the black/white and green wires to measure the TPS voltage.
On a 94-95 Mustang, probe the black/white and grey/white wires to measure the TPS voltage.
It should be .5-.1.0 volts with the key on, engine not running. Note that if the black/white wire (signal ground) has a bad connection, you will get some strange readings. Make a second measurement using the battery post as the ground to eliminate any ground problems. If the readings are different by more than 5%, you may have a high resistance condition in the black/white signal ground circuit.
6.) Spark & fuel pressure OK.
A.) Failed IAB or improperly set base idle (no airflow to start engine). Press the throttle ¼ way down and try to start the car. See the "Surging Idle Checklist for help with all your idle/stall problems.
B.) Failed computer (not very likely)
C.) Engine ignition or cam timing off: only likely if the engine has been worked on recently. If you removed the distributor, there is a good probability that you installed it 180 degrees out of time.
D.) Firing order off: HO & 351 use a different firing order from the non HO engines.
HO & 351W 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8
Non HO 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
E.) No start when hot - Press the throttle to the floor & try starting it if you get this far. If it starts, replace the ECT.
F. ) Engine that has had the heads off or valves adjusted. Do a compression test to make sure the valves are not adjusted too tight. You should have a minimum of 90 PSI on a cold engine.
If you really want to find and fix the problem run the checklist below when the car won't start. If you use it correctly and not jump around or test just what YOU want to test, you will find the problem.
Cranks OK, but No Start Checklist for Fuel Injected Mustangs
A word about this checklist before you start: it is arranged in a specific order to put the most likely failure items first. That will save you time, energy and money. Start at the top of the list and work your way down. Jumping around will possibly cause you to miss just what you need to see to find and fix the problem. Don’t skip any steps because the next step depends on the last step working correctly.
Revised 28-Nov-2011 to update the Fuel pump test jumper diagram .
All text applies to all models unless stated otherwise.
Note: 94-95 specific changes are in red
1.) Remove push on connector (small red/blue wire) from starter solenoid and turn ignition switch to the Run position. Place car in neutral or Park and set the parking brake. Remove the coil wire from distributor & and hold it 3/8” away from the engine block. Jumper the screw to the big bolt on the starter solenoid that has the battery wire connected to it. You should get a nice fat blue spark.
Most of the items are electrical in nature, so a test light, or even better, a voltmeter, is helpful to be sure they have power to them.
No spark, possible failed items in order of their probability:
A.) MSD or Crane ignition box if so equipped
B.) PIP sensor in distributor. The PIP sensor supplies the timing pulse to trigger the TFI and injectors. A failing PIP sensor will sometimes let the engine start if the SPOUT is removed. See paragraph 5A – Using a noid light will tell if the PIP is working by flashing when the engine is cranking.
C.) TFI module: use a test light to check the TFI module. Place one lead of the test light on the red/green wire on the ignition coil connector and the other lead on the dark green/yellow wire on the ignition coil connector. If the TFI is working properly, the test light will flash when the engine is cranked using the ignition switch.
D.) Coil
E.) No EEC or computer power - EEC or computer relay failure
86-93 models only: EEC relay next to computer - look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires.
94-95 models only: EEC or PCM power relay in the constant control relay module. Look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires.
Both 86-93 and 94-95 models: No 12 volts with the ignition switch in the run position on the fuel injector red wires. The relay has failed or there is no power coming from the ignition switch. Make sure that there is 12 volts on the red/green wire on the coil before replacing the relay.
F.) No EEC or computer power - fuse or fuse link failure
86-93 models only: Fuse links in wiring harness - look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires. All the fuse links live in a bundle up near the starter solenoid. Look for a 20 gauge blue fuse link connected to 2 black/orange 14 gauge wires.
94-95 models only: 20 amp EEC fuse in the engine compartment fuse box. Look for 12 volts at the fuel injector red wires.
G.) Ignition switch - look for 12 volts at the ignition coil red/lt green wire. No 12 volts, blown fuse link or faulty ignition switch. Remove the plastic from around the ignition switch and look for 12 volts on the red/green wire on the ignition switch with it in the Run position. No 12 volts and the ignition switch is faulty. If 12 volts is present in the Run position at the ignition switch but not at the coil, then the fuse or fuse link is blown.
Note: fuses or fuse links blow for a reason. Don’t replace either a fuse or fuse link with one with a larger rating than stock. Doing so invites an electrical fire.
Ignition fuse links may be replaced with an inline fuse holder and 5 amp fuse for troubleshooting purposes.
94-95 models only: Check inside fuse panel for fuse #18 blown – 20 amp fuse
H.) Missing or loose computer power ground. The computer has its own dedicated power ground that comes off the ground pigtail on the battery ground wire. Due to it's proximity to the battery, it may become corroded by acid fumes from the battery.
In 86-90 model cars, it is a black cylinder about 2 1/2" long by 1" diameter with a black/lt green wire.
In 91-95 model cars it is a black cylinder about 2 1/2" long by 1" diameter with a black/white wire.
You'll find it up next to the starter solenoid where the wire goes into the wiring harness
I.) Computer.
J.) Bad or missing secondary power ground. It is located between the back of the intake manifold and the driver's side firewall. It supplies ground for the alternator, A/C compressor clutch and other electrical accessories such as the gauges.
K.) Engine fires briefly, but dies immediately when the key is released to the Run position. Crank the engine & when it fires off, pull the small push on connector (red wire) off the starter relay (Looks like it is stuck on a screw). Hold the switch in the crank position: if it continues to run there is a problem with either the ignition switch or TFI module. Check for 12 volts at the red/green wire on the coil with the switch in the Run position. Good 12 volts, then replace the TFI. No 12 volts, replace the ignition switch.
Wiring Diagrams:
See the following website for some help from Tmoss (diagram designer) & Stang&2Birds (website host) for help on 88-95 wiring Mustang FAQ - Engine Information Everyone should bookmark this site.
Ignition switch wiring
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/IgnitionSwitchWiring.gif
Fuel, alternator, A/C and ignition wiring
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/fuel-alt-links-ign-ac.gif
Complete computer, actuator & sensor wiring diagram for 88-91 Mass Air Mustangs
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/88-91_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif
Complete computer, actuator & sensor wiring diagram for 91-93 Mass Air Mustangs
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/91-93_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif
Complete computer, actuator & sensor wiring diagram for 94-95 Mass Air Mustangs
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/94-95_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif
2.) Spark at coil wire, pull #1 plug wire off at the spark plug and check to see spark. No spark, possible failed items in order of their probability: [/b]
A.) Moisture inside distributor – remove cap, dry off & spray with WD40
B.) Distributor cap
C.) Rotor
D.) Spark Plug wires
E.) Coil weak or intermittent - you should see 3/8" fat blue spark with a good coil
3.) Spark at spark plug, but no start.
Next, get a can of starting fluid (ether) from your local auto parts store: costs a $1.30 or so. Then pull the air duct off at the throttle body elbow, open the throttle, and spray the ether in it. Reconnect the air duct and try to start the car. Do not try to start the car without reconnecting the air duct.
Two reasons:
1.) If it backfires, the chance for a serious fire is increased.
2.) On Mass Air cars, the computer needs to measure the MAF flow once the engine starts.
If it starts then, you have a fuel management issue. Continue the checklist with emphasis of fuel related items that follow. If it doesn’t, then it is a computer or timing issue: see Step 4.
Clue – listen for the fuel pump to prime when you first turn the ignition switch on. It should run for 5-20 seconds and shut off. To trick the fuel pump into running, find the EEC test connector and jump the connector in the Upper RH corner to ground. The EEC connector is near the wiper motor and LH hood hinge.
If the relay & inertia switch are OK, you will have power to the pump. Check fuel pressure – remove the cap from the Schrader valve behind the alternator and depress the core. Fuel should squirt out, catch it in a rag. Beware of fire hazard when you do this. In a pinch, you can use a tire pressure gauge to measure the fuel pressure. It may not be completely accurate, but you will have some clue as to how much pressure you have. If you have any doubts about having sufficient fuel flow/pressure, rent a fuel pressure test gauge from the auto parts store. That will tell you for sure if you have adequate fuel pressure.
4.) No fuel pressure, possible failed items in order of their probability:
A.) Tripped inertia switch – Coupe & hatch cars hide it under the plastic trim covering the driver's side taillight. Use the voltmeter or test light to make sure you have power to both sides of the switch
B.) Fuel pump power relay – located under the driver’s seat in most stangs built before 92. On 92 and later model cars it is located below the Mass Air Flow meter. Look for 12 volts at the Pink/Black wire on the fuel pump relay.
C.) Clogged fuel filter
D.) Failed fuel pump
E.) 86-90 models only: Blown fuse link in wiring harness. Look for 12 volts at the Orange/Lt Blue wire on the fuel pump relay.
91-93 models only Blown fuse link in wiring harness. Look for 12 volts at the Pink/Black wire on the fuel pump relay.
The fuse links for all model years 86-93 live in the wiring harness near the starter solenoid.
94-95 models only: 20 amp fuel pump fuse in the engine compartment fuse box. Look for 12 volts at the Dark green/yellow wire on the constant control relay module.
F.) Engine seem to load up on fuel and may have black smoke at the tailpipe. Fuel pressure regulator failed. Remove the vacuum line from the regulator and inspect for fuel escaping while the pump is running. If fuel is coming out the vacuum port, the regulator has failed. Check the regulator vacuum line for fuel too. Disconnect it from the engine and blow air though it. If you find gas, the regulator has failed.
5.) Fuel pressure OK, the injectors are not firing.
A.) The PIP sensor in the distributor tells the computer when to fire the injectors. A failing PIP sensor will sometimes let the engine start if the SPOUT is removed.
A noid light available from any auto parts store, is one way to test the injector circuit to see if the injectors are firing. The noid light plugs into the fuel injector harness in place of any easily accessible injector. Plug it in and try to start the engine: it will flash if the injector is firing.
B.) I like to use an old injector with compressed air applied to the injector where the fuel rail would normally connect. I hook the whole thing up, apply compressed air to the injector and stick it in a paper cup of soapy water. When the engine cranks with the ignition switch on, if the injector fires, it makes bubbles. Cheap if you have the stuff laying around, and works good too.
D.) Pull an injector wire connector off and look for 12 volts on the red wire when the ignition switch is on.
E.) No power, then look for problems with the 10 pin connecter (salt & pepper shakers at the rear of the upper manifold).
See the graphic for the 10 pin connector circuit layout.
The injector power pin is the VPWR pin in the black 10 pin connector.
F.) No power and the 10 pin connections are good: look for broken wiring between the orange/black wire on the EEC relay and the red wire for the 10 pin connectors.
G.) TPS voltage exceeds 3.7 volts with the throttle closed. This will shut off the injectors, since the computer uses this strategy to clear a flooded engine. Use a DVM, a pair of safety pins, and probe the black/white and green wires to measure the TPS voltage.
On a 94-95 Mustang, probe the black/white and grey/white wires to measure the TPS voltage.
It should be .5-.1.0 volts with the key on, engine not running. Note that if the black/white wire (signal ground) has a bad connection, you will get some strange readings. Make a second measurement using the battery post as the ground to eliminate any ground problems. If the readings are different by more than 5%, you may have a high resistance condition in the black/white signal ground circuit.
6.) Spark & fuel pressure OK.
A.) Failed IAB or improperly set base idle (no airflow to start engine). Press the throttle ¼ way down and try to start the car. See the "Surging Idle Checklist for help with all your idle/stall problems.
B.) Failed computer (not very likely)
C.) Engine ignition or cam timing off: only likely if the engine has been worked on recently. If you removed the distributor, there is a good probability that you installed it 180 degrees out of time.
D.) Firing order off: HO & 351 use a different firing order from the non HO engines.
HO & 351W 1-3-7-2-6-5-4-8
Non HO 1-5-4-2-6-3-7-8
E.) No start when hot - Press the throttle to the floor & try starting it if you get this far. If it starts, replace the ECT.
F. ) Engine that has had the heads off or valves adjusted. Do a compression test to make sure the valves are not adjusted too tight. You should have a minimum of 90 PSI on a cold engine.
Attachments
89stang1 said:
This has probably become a sad cliche but MSD = My Spark Died
I know you've recently replaced the PIP sensor but the symptoms you've described are classic for a bad PIP sensor. You may have gotten a dud right out of the box.
It's a pity you've spent a lot of money on the MSD stuff 'cause it does absolutely diddly squat and the overpriced MSD dizzy has been known to come sometimes with bad PIP sensors.
thanks for info guys.... when i replaced my pip i had different symptoms car had bad mis and bucking hard tach needle was jumping but car was not shutting off. Now car starts and runs fine then just shuts off with no other symptoms. MSD dizzy was in car when i bought it i wasted my money on the msd box and coil. I havent had a chance to mess with car for a couple days, last nite i ran car till shut off then put in my spare tfi. Both tfi modules work at start up and then car fails the same way with both. After i put spare in car didnt start so im gonna take tfi off list and look else where, i ran code again after and got 67 even holding down clutch during test 85 and 15. Im gonna try to borrow a ecm if thats not it i'll have to pull apart the msd box which will be a pita and the most costly to replace!....one more question i looked under seat at eec relay it looks like at one time it got a little hot with my symptoms could it be eec relay pump does prime for a couple seconds like normal when i turn key
You have two choices:
1.) When the car won't start, run the checklist: you will find the source of the problem.
2.) Continue to throw parts and time at the problem and hope to get lucky.
1.) When the car won't start, run the checklist: you will find the source of the problem.
2.) Continue to throw parts and time at the problem and hope to get lucky.
yeah thats right fuel pump relay under drivers seat ive heard people call it eec relay its not, im plugging thru checklist..... i do have a question for the electronic gurus if my fuel pump relay is malfunctioning and cutting off can that cause something following to shut spark off
If the fuel pump relay shuts off, the fuel pump quits working. The ignition and computer are unaffected. You would get a code 95 or 96 when you dumped the codes.
If the ignition switch shuts off everything quits working.
Diagram courtesy of Tmoss & Stang&2birds
[img]
See the following website for some help from Tmoss (diagram designer) & Stang&2Birds (website host) for help on 88-95 wiring http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/ Everyone should bookmark this site.
Ignition switch wiring
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/IgnitionSwitchWiring.gif
Fuel, alternator, A/C and ignition wiring
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/fuel-alt-links-ign-ac.gif
Complete computer, actuator & sensor wiring diagram for 88-91 Mass Air Mustangs
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/88-91_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif
Complete computer, actuator & sensor wiring diagram for 91-93 Mass Air Mustangs
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/91-93_5.0_EEC_Wiring_Diagram.gif
Vacuum diagram 89-93 Mustangs
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/mustangFoxFordVacuumDiagram.jpg
HVAC vacuum diagram
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/Mustang_AC_heat_vacuum_controls.gif
TFI module differences & pinout
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/TFI_5.0_comparison.gif
Fuse box layout
http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine/images/MustangFuseBox.gif
Attachments
thanks for answer that rules that out......only reason im not thinking ignition switch i have never heard of one cutting out consistantly at a certain temp like what im getting. This weekend im getting my hands on another A9L see if thats my gremlin!
Are you going to continue to throw parts at the problem or use your head to try and figure out the problem?
Good troubleshooting takes time. Everyone seems to be looking for the magic tip that says replace this $13 part and your problems are cured. You don't have to think, dig or diagnose, just buy the part and install it. Unfortunately, it doesn’t work that way 99% of the time.
Thinking is hard work and educated thinking requires much more effort than simple parts swapping. The complexity and age of these 5.0 Mustangs works against that, as well as the number of hands that have “modified” the original design. Sometimes that modification is well done with good workmanship and other times it is mechanical road kill. It is very easy to become the victim of the previous owner’s efforts.
I spend a great deal of time trying to communicate the methodology of structured troubleshooting principles. For those who haven’t been beaten with this stick before, here they are again:
1.) Understand the system. That involves reading some books to get an overall picture of how it works. For 5.0 Mustangs, that list starts with the Chilton shop manual and the Probst book, Ford Fuel Injection & Electronic Engine Control 1988-1993 by Charles
Probst :ISBN 0-8376-0301-3. It's about $30-$40 from Borders.com, see
http://www.amazon.com. Select books and then select search. Use the ISBN number (without dashes or spaces) to do a search. Use the ISBN number and your local library can get you a loaner copy for free for 2 weeks or so.
For free automotive electrical training, see http://www.autoshop101.com/ . I have personally reviewed the material and it is very good.
Another resource is the following website by Tmoss (diagram designer) & Stang&2Birds (website host) for help on 88-95 wiring: http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine. Study the diagrams and tech articles. There is an amazing amount of good stuff in one place for FREE.
2.) Isolate the problem. You need to be able to break the system down into functional blocks or subsystems. Once you know what subsystem has failed, it is much easier to troubleshoot. Group problem symptoms according to what system controls them. Don’t look for a fix for ignition problems by adjusting the fuel pressure. Have an organized, step by step, approach to work your way through a subsystem before you quit and go off wildly chasing rabbits. You have three tools to use in your efforts: measure, observe and think!. Use these three tools to narrow down the list of possible failure points into a small, easily managed list of items.
3.) Install the fix. Now that you have a short list of suspected villains, plan your repair efforts so that you do the easy things first. If an item from the easy list didn’t fix your problem, then look at the high failure rate items. Spend some time here on Stangnet and you’ll get an idea of what the most commonly replaced parts are, things like TFI modules, ignition switches and fuel pumps.
If you make a change and it doesn’t relieve the problem symptoms, put it back the way it was. I have a stack of parts from where I swapped a part and it didn’t fix the problem. I put the old part back on the car and the new part went on the shelf. Someday I will either
use them or trade them for something else.
Good troubleshooting takes time. Everyone seems to be looking for the magic tip that says replace this $13 part and your problems are cured. You don't have to think, dig or diagnose, just buy the part and install it. Unfortunately, it doesn’t work that way 99% of the time.
Thinking is hard work and educated thinking requires much more effort than simple parts swapping. The complexity and age of these 5.0 Mustangs works against that, as well as the number of hands that have “modified” the original design. Sometimes that modification is well done with good workmanship and other times it is mechanical road kill. It is very easy to become the victim of the previous owner’s efforts.
I spend a great deal of time trying to communicate the methodology of structured troubleshooting principles. For those who haven’t been beaten with this stick before, here they are again:
1.) Understand the system. That involves reading some books to get an overall picture of how it works. For 5.0 Mustangs, that list starts with the Chilton shop manual and the Probst book, Ford Fuel Injection & Electronic Engine Control 1988-1993 by Charles
Probst :ISBN 0-8376-0301-3. It's about $30-$40 from Borders.com, see
http://www.amazon.com. Select books and then select search. Use the ISBN number (without dashes or spaces) to do a search. Use the ISBN number and your local library can get you a loaner copy for free for 2 weeks or so.
For free automotive electrical training, see http://www.autoshop101.com/ . I have personally reviewed the material and it is very good.
Another resource is the following website by Tmoss (diagram designer) & Stang&2Birds (website host) for help on 88-95 wiring: http://www.veryuseful.com/mustang/tech/engine. Study the diagrams and tech articles. There is an amazing amount of good stuff in one place for FREE.
2.) Isolate the problem. You need to be able to break the system down into functional blocks or subsystems. Once you know what subsystem has failed, it is much easier to troubleshoot. Group problem symptoms according to what system controls them. Don’t look for a fix for ignition problems by adjusting the fuel pressure. Have an organized, step by step, approach to work your way through a subsystem before you quit and go off wildly chasing rabbits. You have three tools to use in your efforts: measure, observe and think!. Use these three tools to narrow down the list of possible failure points into a small, easily managed list of items.
3.) Install the fix. Now that you have a short list of suspected villains, plan your repair efforts so that you do the easy things first. If an item from the easy list didn’t fix your problem, then look at the high failure rate items. Spend some time here on Stangnet and you’ll get an idea of what the most commonly replaced parts are, things like TFI modules, ignition switches and fuel pumps.
If you make a change and it doesn’t relieve the problem symptoms, put it back the way it was. I have a stack of parts from where I swapped a part and it didn’t fix the problem. I put the old part back on the car and the new part went on the shelf. Someday I will either
use them or trade them for something else.
UPDATE: picked up a new reman a9l computer at advanced autoparts after i took my computer out and opened it up and noticed a little leakage on the board in one spot. So after i put new comp in car still shut off but when i ran codes with new comp i got new different ones, i got codes for 02 sensors but more important code was 14 pip failure. I put a new pip in so far car is running without shutting off thank god!!!!!!!!! hopefully the ignition nitemare ended!
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