New Track Times

[Black95GTS]

You didn't answer up top, but I bet there is a ton left in the tune. Paul's been tuning these cars for over 10 years by himself, and now he has a top of the line stand alone setup. Who did your tune and what do you have for hardware in the computer department?

Adam

 

[legalize420]

I will next spring. There is nothing else other then the heads that can be holding the combo back. No one else seems to have an answer for why my 351 puts out 340 at the wheels for anything other then that something is up w/ the heads being insufficient. Something is just not right when pauls 331 was putting out 380 w/ 165 AFR's

was that code 113 there when you had it on the dyno? i remember you said you had a chip. do you know if the tune is t4m0 or j4j1 based? i could be wrong but if i remember right ACT temps are used on the t4m0 to change fuel and spark based on the incoming air temp. i dont think they are set that way in the j4j1. just a suggestion. if its t4m0 that code 113 might be a problem.

 

[Venom351R]

You didn't answer up top, but I bet there is a ton left in the tune. Paul's been tuning these cars for over 10 years by himself, and now he has a top of the line stand alone setup. Who did your tune and what do you have for hardware in the computer department?

Adam

was that code 113 there when you had it on the dyno? i remember you said you had a chip. do you know if the tune is t4m0 or j4j1 based? i could be wrong but if i remember right ACT temps are used on the t4m0 to change fuel and spark based on the incoming air temp. i dont think they are set that way in the j4j1. just a suggestion. if its t4m0 that code 113 might be a problem.

The ECU is custom programed. The tuner did not have a specific code to use when tuning the ECU.

I dont know if code 113 was there on the dyno b/c I did not have the code scanner at that time. The CEL was first being thrown due to the IAT sensor which was broken and not staying connected but I since replaced it w/ a new ford unit but now its throwing the 113 code and 998 while running.

I also have a spare ECU out of a 95 Cobra

 

[Black95GTS]

I think you have good parts. I think your car should be putting down more then it is, although I don't know what you wanted from Ed regarding the camshaft. And that is certainly between you and Ed. I would suspect though that you'd indeed be making Paul type numbers.

Just for piece of mind, I'd install a normal ECU and have a chip done for it... somewhere else.

Adam

 

[Venom351R]

THe issue is not w/ the tuner, pete does really good work. The thing is I have no idea what the programing is for that ECU and how well it accepts mods or chips. When I have time this week Im going to put the other ECU in w/ the chip that I have and scan for codes again and see what happens.

 

[revhead347]

There are 3 basic computers for our cars, but only one for the 5 speed. If your car came with a 5 speed, then he didn't need to ask which computer you had.

Kurt

 

[Venom351R]

There are 3 basic computers for our cars, but only one for the 5 speed. If your car came with a 5 speed, then he didn't need to ask which computer you had.

Kurt

When tuning for the chip the software needs to know what the code is for the computer, cant just write in 94/95 cobra w/ a 5 spd. The ECU in it now had no code assigned to it.

What are the 3 computers, 94/95 GT Auto and 5 spd and the 5 spd cobra?

 

[rj95svt]

There are 3 different 5 speed computers. One for the GT and one for the cobra. I do believe that cobra R's also had there own computers that were completely different than anything else.

Venom didn't your car have alot of prototype parts on it. I'm betting since roush done the tune on the cobra's. Your car may have had a prototype cobra r computer in it judging by the pics.

 

[Black95GTS]

There are 3 different 5 speed computers. One for the GT and one for the cobra. I do believe that cobra R's also had there own computers that were completely different than anything else.

Venom didn't your car have alot of prototype parts on it. I'm betting since roush done the tune on the cobra's. Your car may have had a prototype cobra r computer in it judging by the pics.

Wrong.

Its all the same computer for 5 speeds and autos. It depends on the what "catch code" or tune you start with.

What matters is the tune in the computer's memory. The GT used a T4M0 tune, which was the A/F curve for a GT running 19 pound injectors. The Cobra used a J4J1 tune, which was the A/F curve for the cobra's better-breathing HCI and 24 pound injectors. The U4PO tune is a GT tune, but for an automatic with all of the slush box parameters in there.

I could have loaded the U4PO tune into my computer from 5 speed GT, slipped it into an automatic GT, and it would have run and shifted like stock.

When you run a TwEECer for the SN95, you have the ability to load the "base" of the above three tunes into your laptop and further modify them from there. 99% of people load the Cobra tune and modify, as the Cobra has much more in common with a modified car then the GT.

All three tunes work with the same physical computer.

I don't know Pete or his work, so I have no idea what he used or how he tuned it. It looks like you had a base tune for some prototype Cobra 5.0L. If Pete is as competent as you say then the "tune" that came with that computer has been wiped out, or bypassed, and Pete's tune imposed on the hardware.

Adam

 

[rj95svt]

Wrong.

Its all the same computer for 5 speeds and autos. It depends on the what "catch code" or tune you start with.

What matters is the tune in the computer's memory. The GT used a T4M0 tune, which was the A/F curve for a GT running 19 pound injectors. The Cobra used a J4J1 tune, which was the A/F curve for the cobra's better-breathing HCI and 24 pound injectors. The U4PO tune is a GT tune, but for an automatic with all of the slush box parameters in there.

I could have loaded the U4PO tune into my computer from 5 speed GT, slipped it into an automatic GT, and it would have run and shifted like stock.

When you run a TwEECer for the SN95, you have the ability to load the "base" of the above three tunes into your laptop and further modify them from there. 99% of people load the Cobra tune and modify, as the Cobra has much more in common with a modified car then the GT.

All three tunes work with the same physical computer.

I don't know Pete or his work, so I have no idea what he used or how he tuned it. It looks like you had a base tune for some prototype Cobra 5.0L. If Pete is as competent as you say then the "tune" that came with that computer has been wiped out, or bypassed, and Pete's tune imposed on the hardware.

Adam

Your right the computers are the same I was actually meaning there are three catch codes for 5 speed cars. T4MO, J4J1, and the cobra R which I don't remember off the top of my head. I just said it wrong.

I run a gt computer with the J4J1 cobra tune in my cobra because some idiot put a reman GT computer in it. The computer in my car has no code on it whatsoever just a sticker labelled remanufactured. It wasn't till I bought the tweecer that I noticed gt settings in it. The car had some driveability problems I was able to solve by doing so.

 

[revhead347]

Your right the computers are the same I was actually meaning there are three catch codes for 5 speed cars. T4MO, J4J1, and the cobra R which I don't remember off the top of my head. I just said it wrong.

I run a gt computer with the J4J1 cobra tune in my cobra because some idiot put a reman GT computer in it. The computer in my car has no code on it whatsoever just a sticker labelled remanufactured. It wasn't till I bought the tweecer that I noticed gt settings in it. The car had some driveability problems I was able to solve by doing so.

What I'm saying is that if you specify 95' Mustang GT 5 speed to the tuner, there is only one catch code for that car. Maybe the 94' is different.

Kurt

 

[Venom351R]

Venom didn't your car have alot of prototype parts on it. I'm betting since roush done the tune on the cobra's. Your car may have had a prototype cobra r computer in it judging by the pics.

Thats what "custom Programed" means that I posted above. Craig Barker programed the computer, its a custom program. hes the Powertrain manager at Roush.


What is the most you can stroke out a 351 before you have to do machine work on the block? I heard you can stoke it to a 393 and not have to do any machine work, does that mean you can just drop in a 393 stroker kit into a stock 351 block?

 

[revhead347]

I honestly don't know what the limit is for machinework, but generally machinework means notching the bottom of the cylinders, which really isn't that big of a deal. If you get a stroker kit, you are going to want to have a machine shop go through the engine anyway. If they already have the block, it really isn't any big deal to do the notch work. The biggest I have ever heard of on a stock 351 block was 454cid.

Kurt

 

[Venom351R]

a 454 would require extensive machine work, Im talking about not needing to bore out the cylinders. I can either do a stoker kit on my current block, buy a new short block or try and put in a stroker kit that wont require extensive machine work as in building a 408.

Im trying to find the happy medium between the cost of a 408 and not having to shell out $500-$1000 in block prep

 

[rj95svt]

Thats what "custom Programed" means that I posted above. Craig Barker programed the computer, its a custom program. hes the Powertrain manager at Roush.


What is the most you can stroke out a 351 before you have to do machine work on the block? I heard you can stoke it to a 393 and not have to do any machine work, does that mean you can just drop in a 393 stroker kit into a stock 351 block?

Thats what I was thinking but I wasn't sure if you meant a custom tuned chip or actually a custom programed computer.

You have a very intresting and nice car with all those prototype parts. A 393 should not require any special machine work just the standard stuff for rebuilding a engine. Personally I think I would find a lightning shortblock as a base for the build. That way you can build the engine and have it ready to drop in for minimal down time and you have a spare shortblock if anything should happen to the stroker.

 

[Venom351R]

Thats what I was thinking but I wasn't sure if you meant a custom tuned chip or actually a custom programed computer.

You have a very intresting and nice car with all those prototype parts. A 393 should not require any special machine work just the standard stuff for rebuilding a engine. Personally I think I would find a lightning shortblock as a base for the build. That way you can build the engine and have it ready to drop in for minimal down time and you have a spare shortblock if anything should happen to the stroker.

I was thinking of doing that too but it all comes down to cost as with everything. I really want 400 at the wheels NA that's what Im really aiming for.

I could do a short block 408 but that plus heads plus labor = a big bill. I could do just bigger heads and long tubes but I have the issue of PVC with Twisted Wedge heads so I would like to run TW pistons so I know I dont have issue, if Im going to have pistons put in I might as well stroke it out too but I dont want the added cost of machine work as well b/c in that case Im in the same area as a whole new 408 short block.

I was thinking a 393 w/ 205cc heads, Victor 5.8 (lower ported by Tmoss) intake my current camshaft w/ a accufab TB (fox set up) should give me the 400 I want and I would be more then happy with that.


Here is another question. If I go ahead w/ the above set up would I be better off keeping my TFSR intake or would I be better off w/ the Victor 5.8?

 

[Venom351R]

These came today

FRPP 4.10's but not sure when I can get them put in. My ranger has a problem and not sure what it is or how much it will be to fix it.

 

[Grn92LX]

you cannot just put an assembly in the block. It still needs to be honed (and checked if the bores are ok first), the assembly has to be balanced, block may need deck work, may need to be align honed ect.

You don't need a stroker anyway for only 400 to the wheels, but you already know this.

what did you ask Ed for when he designed the cam? Just because its a custom cam doesn't mean its gonna be a big powerhouse. Its all in what YOU asked for.

 

[Venom351R]

you cannot just put an assembly in the block. It still needs to be honed (and checked if the bores are ok first), the assembly has to be balanced, block may need deck work, may need to be align honed ect.

You don't need a stroker anyway for only 400 to the wheels, but you already know this.

what did you ask Ed for when he designed the cam? Just because its a custom cam doesn't mean its gonna be a big powerhouse. Its all in what YOU asked for.

The only reason I was thinking of a stoker is b/c if I have the engine out to have the pistons done I might as well stroke it out too but I dont want to deal w/ the added cost of machine work and does not look like I can get around that. The stock crank is fine maybe I'll just do forged pistons for better compression (trickflows) and some forged rods for added meausre and leave the rest how it is. My pistions are notched but if they are enough for TF heads Im not sure. Thats not something I want to find out at the last min.

I asked for Ed to have the cam pull in conjunction w/ the TFSR and the AFR 185's. I wanted the H/C/I set up to work together as in the same way the Trick Flow top end kits do. Maybe the TFSR is not a good match for those heads Im not sure. I assume I would be better off w/ a short runner intake such as the Victor 5.8 b/c I have plenty of power/TQ down low but even w/ a long runner intake I was still making good power in the upper RPM's.

What it comes down to Is I cant leave it as is and be fully happy not w/ it being a 351. IMO I think if I just pull the trigger and get the 205cc TF heads w/ higher compression Trckflow pistons and long tubes I'll have a much more powerful combo.

It leaves the question of if I should still use the custom cam or go w/ something like a Trickflow stage 2 and should I still use the TFSR or go w/ a Victor 5.8

 

[rj95svt]

I was thinking of doing that too but it all comes down to cost as with everything. I really want 400 at the wheels NA that's what Im really aiming for.

I could do a short block 408 but that plus heads plus labor = a big bill. I could do just bigger heads and long tubes but I have the issue of PVC with Twisted Wedge heads so I would like to run TW pistons so I know I dont have issue, if Im going to have pistons put in I might as well stroke it out too but I dont want the added cost of machine work as well b/c in that case Im in the same area as a whole new 408 short block.

I was thinking a 393 w/ 205cc heads, Victor 5.8 (lower ported by Tmoss) intake my current camshaft w/ a accufab TB (fox set up) should give me the 400 I want and I would be more then happy with that.


Here is another question. If I go ahead w/ the above set up would I be better off keeping my TFSR intake or would I be better off w/ the Victor 5.8?

IMHO I would do 1 3/4 long tubes into a 3" full exhaust. Then do the fox throttle body setup with a accufab 90mm tb and a 4" custom CAI and see what that does first then continue to the heads and shortblock. Who knows that may unlock a good bit of horse power there. That along with the 4.10's may drop your times considerably. If you do continue to the 393 stroker you have all the supporting mods in place and you should far exceed you 400hp expectations.

How big is your cam? TW heads offer more clearance than stock style heads even without valve reliefs. Ed could probably give you a good idea if it would be close to working. I would run the question by him about what the exhaust would do for your combo as well.

I think I would also run a converted carb victor jr with the throttle body elbow for a intake. I personally think they make better power than the efi intakes. I've driven several cars with victor jr intakes and with the ci you'll have torque should not be a problem

These are just my opinions though so take them for what they are worth.