Throttle by wire?

Discussion in '2005 - 2009 Specific Tech' started by BLOWN95GT, Jul 28, 2004.


  1. NewPony'05

    NewPony'05 New Member

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  2. 351CJ

    351CJ New Member

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  3. WrongWay

    WrongWay Founding Member

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    Most people tend to fear what they don't understand. Sad but true
  4. inultus

    inultus New Member

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    Yes and no. I've been working on cars and rebuilding engines for 15 years, so I'll give you a real world example.

    Let's say the code says there is a problem with the 02 sensor. Well, if your TPS (on a GM car) has a problem, it can cause your engine to have the wrong fuel/air mixture, and this in turn can cause idle problems, accel. problems, even stalling. These problems in turn cause the engine to have some whacko emissions, which trigger the 02 issue, which will lead to a check engine light (as will tons of other problems).

    Now, if I think the 02 sensor is the problem, I replace those, which does nothing to fix the problem. The computer is not smarter than me, the mechanic. I know that problems generally come down to 1 of 3 things:

    a) A fuel/air delivery problem
    b) An ignition problem (90% of ignition problems are in the secondary, not the primary, ignition circuit)
    c) A lack of compression

    Anyhoo, you asked if technology makes diagnosing problems easier. Well, I would say, sometimes...

    For instance, on an old 4 barrell carb I can check the throttle linkage very easily, and I can adjust it easily. But, with a TPS and Throttle by Wire, the computer will not know exactly where the problem is, and I can replace numerous components without fixing the problem. This gets pretty expensive with electronic components.

    And what sucks about electronic components is that, unlike mechanical linkages, there is not necessarily a high rate of failure with any one component. For instance, with T5 trannys, we know that second gear is weak. With the multiple electronic components, we only know that capacitors might be subject to overheating, and transistors are used in TONS of applications in newer vehicles, thus making it more difficult to diagnose via experience.

    I'm sure you see where I'm going with this. Technology is both good and bad, but we have to accept and learn about it, whether we like it or not.
  5. BLOWN95GT

    BLOWN95GT Founding Member

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    I agree with inultus. I do not agree with the http://www.carnuttv.com/articles/articles_drive_by_wire.htm article. It talks about the wonders of automatic HVAC. Well I hate climate control. I like being able to set the temperature of the air coming out of my vents to where I want it. With climate control you set it to a temperature and it blows ice cold air at high speed until it reaches the dialed in temperature then starts to blow warm air until it balances it out. I had climate control in my 1986 Taurus and I now have it in my 2004 Mazda6 and it hasn't changed. It still sucks. And the throttle by wire has a lag and provides no feedback. This is progress? Maybe we should all drive aodE. I'm not saying we should go back to mechanical brakes or carburetors, but there is the joy of feeling the car and enjoying it.
  6. 63_Fairlane

    63_Fairlane Founding Member

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    The "feel" or feed back is created partially by the throttle mechanism but mostly by return springs and cable bind. It should be pretty easy to pick the correct spring to make the petal "feel" right.

    The other side of the equation is the computer's response to the driver input. Agian, this should be easy to tune by reflashing the computer.
  7. Ray III

    Ray III New Member

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    damn... let's get some facts straight here

    - Exerting a tension force on one end of a solid object undergoing no deformation results in a nearly instantaneous reaction at the other end. Electricity and complex systems take time to move. In other words, a throttle by wire system consisting of a variable resistor, wiring to a control module, a computer proccessing data, wiring to the throttle body, an electric motor, and lash in the necessary gearing to open the throttle plate are not going to have faster throttle response than a direct cable linkage.

    - The more complex a device, the more problems it will have. Period.

    I guess you could say I'm not a fan of having stuff controlled be electricity without a good reason, being a diesel mechanic whose greatest stress comes from constantly fixing the electrical gremlins on his own car. Call me old fashioned if you like... but you won't see me buy any vehicle built after 1995. There's just too much stuff wrong with them after the great race toward overcomplication.
  8. WrongWay

    WrongWay Founding Member

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    Yes please do get your facts straight.. and you don’t have to worry about me calling you old fashion, because you are now crossing over to the realm of ignorant. Maybe you should get the necessary training to update your skills as a technician so you can better understand the complexities of today’s automobiles
  9. Ray III

    Ray III New Member

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    What's wrong with my statements? Do you have any solid intelligence to back up your opinions and trash talking?
  10. 63_Fairlane

    63_Fairlane Founding Member

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    Ummmm,
    Electricity moves pretty dam fast... fast enough to be considered instantaneous to the human eye sooooo I don't think that is the cause of the lag. Let me rephrase that, THE SPEED AT WHICH ELECTRICITY TRAVELS IS SO DAMN FAST THAT WE MEAR HUMANS CAN NOT COMPREHEND IT!!!!

    The lag was programed into earlier bywire systems to keep Joe and Suzie McMinivan_Civic_Urban_Asault_Vehicle from killing someone. Read articles about the C5 and the C6... are there any complaints? No.

    How much different this will be from what we have now? Right now, all the driver does is open a butterfly valve, the throttle position sensor sends a signal(ELECTRICAL) to the computer, and the COMPUTER decides how much gas will be sprayed....seems pretty instantaneous to me. The only differance is now the computer may have a say in how the butterfly valve opens.

    After market throttle bodies should not be any more expensive than they are now. The electric motor should unbolt like a TPS module.

    Now, if on the other hand you want to argue about the 4.6 being a huge, heavy, overcomplicated lump... then I will be more than happy to agree.
  11. powershots

    powershots Founding Member

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    look at the brighht side, FORD is not using Microsoft :nonono: software on their computers yet.
  12. ryanrule

    ryanrule impotent Founding Member

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    electricity aint really that fast. for short distances though, its quick enough
  13. Ray III

    Ray III New Member

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    Why is my computer so damn slow? There must be cable operated devices inside it or something.
  14. SVTdriver

    SVTdriver Founding Member

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    "We are told, by physicists, that electricity travels the same exact speed, through a wire, that light travels through a vacuum."

    I suppose you are right. The speed of light is pretty slow... when going to pluto.
  15. MustangGT01

    MustangGT01 Founding Member

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    Yeap there is a way. It's called the tow truck. The more an more I have to deal with all the electronic crap in my car the more I love the older Capri RS I had. That damn car wasn't pretty but it got my ass home even when a sending unit went out or bad. Try that in a newer car these days and some of them will be on the back of a tow truck.

    Drive by wire isn't anything more than a damn variable speed drill. they tell you you need all this crap but do you really? Exactly how many acceleration cables have you had to replace on a Mustang. I must be lucky cause I damn sure haven't had to yet. I bet their a site damn cheaper, faster, and easier to replace than that "by wire" crap too.
  16. SVTdriver

    SVTdriver Founding Member

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    So how many throttle by wire modules have you had to replace? Faster and Easier to replace would really depend on what part went bad. If it was just the motor on the throttlebody. I'm betting a couple screws and a couple connections at best. Far easier than routing the cable through the firewall.

    And as far as needing it. Considering they are tightening emissions laws. This is a way to help the car achieve those standards. So to a point. YES you do need it.
  17. szer0

    szer0 New Member

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    They need to stop ****ing about our cars and start focusing on what's actually polluting. Dirty diesel burning dump trucks, coal burning, etc.
  18. MustangGT01

    MustangGT01 Founding Member

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    Exactly. And if the government were really all that bent on stopping pollution they would allow the import of of other vehicles built in countries that have even better emmisions standards. Many of which still wonder of wonders use the acceleration cable. Make mass transportation more of a reality instead of occasionaly popping one here or there for a re election bid.

    No, I haven't replaced any tbw units lately. I also don't drive a car new enough that would make that neccesary. If I did, however, and it failed this early in it's use it would only prove their lack of reliability. Like what's been mentioned before, the more you complicate matters the easier they are to fark up and ore prone to fail. I won't even get into the cost factor of the electronics involved.
  19. SVTdriver

    SVTdriver Founding Member

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    Couple of things here.
    First just in case you didn't know. The diesel truck motor is becoming less polluting all the time. As a matter of fact. The engines in the new truck Waste management bought for operating in King County Washington. Are greatly reduced. The engines they used to have were very heavy inparticulate matter. Now you can hold white gloves over them. No matter how long you hold it over the exhaust it will not get dirty. So they are focusing on part of the problem.
    http://www.epa.gov/otaq/
    Also, do you realize how many more cars there are on the road than diesel trucks?

    "No, I haven't replaced any tbw units lately. I also don't drive a car new enough that would make that neccesary. If I did, however, and it failed this early in it's use it would only prove their lack of reliability."

    Ok so if I bought a car and the cable happened to break on me. Would that then prove that the cable has a lack of reliability? No it would show that I got a bad cable. Same as with the electric throttle body. Do you have any REAL proof that they are unreliable? Any real numbers of failures? They have been in several vehicles for at least a couple years now. How many are failing?
  20. Ray III

    Ray III New Member

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    Diesel fuel burns cleaner than gasoline. Smoky trucks have either an old engine with poor combustion efficiency, or owners who won't spend the money to properly maintain the fuel system.

    Don't worry, though... the government is sticking their nose into EVERYBODY'S business.

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