Umm, I'm new, and I'm an alcoholic...
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walter
Founding Member
Fays2, Saleen/Techo, Steeda, Griggs Racing, Lakewood and I think there was another. I prefer the Fays2, and Steeda design over the others.
I'm not totally swayed by the watts link for a few reasons. The setup that Fays2 and steed use is the correct one. The pivot point should be on the chassis side of the watts link, this prevents the role center from changing during suspension travel and allows for easier/more adjustment to the was link. However I have never seen an attachment to the axle tubes that I like, one that both inspired confidence in its strength but had a minimized foot print. The Fays2 is single sheer which I don't like, and the steeda version is just plain massive and ugly.
The PHB can be made to work nearly as well as a properly designed watts like while remaining much less complicated and much more compact.
Dan
The PHB can be made to work nearly as well as a properly designed watts like while remaining much less complicated and much more compact.
Dan
NastyStang113
New Member
walter
Founding Member
The watts link setup will always outperform the panhard setup for the simple fact that there is no side to side swaying motion when the setup is upset by asymmetrical jolts. This translates into safe predictable handling over rough roads. Going over expansion gaps on onramps no longer means a trip to the cleaners because the back end feels like its dancing all over the place. As far as durability is concerned Jim assured me that they system has been engineered with it in mind. 90% of the forces are absorbed by the watts arm at the thick passenger fastener points. In addition all hardware and fasteners included with the kit are heavy duty bolts (higher then grade 8). The center bolt for example has been rated for 22,000lbs of force. This system is beefy, I have to drive on some abysmal roads that are a collection of potholes, speed bumps and expansion gaps and everything is still there and in place without signs of wear or stress.
All of that is true, although that 22000 lbs rating is likely tensile strength and not sheer strength which is what concerns me. That aside, I am sure it is a durable piece that would do well on the track or street.
The side to side motion of the axle is not a very big issue though, if you actually calculate how much the axle moves, this is assuming that the PHB is properly level. The PHB on our cars is very long, ~40" (can't remember the exact length), meaning one inch of suspension travel yields a horizontal movement of the axle of ~0.02" (good ole Pothagorus). While not ideal, it's far from a huge issue.
Now if the PHB is not level the issue becomes much more pronounced. Let's say that the axle side of the PHB is 2 inches lower than the chassis side, not much right? Well if, in say a right hand turn, the chassis side moves up one inch the axle will move 0.06" with respect to the chassis, 3x as much for the same inch of travel.
So tuning the PHB is crucial to ride quality and general handling characteristics. Watts links are better, but a properly tuned PHB will be very close.
The side to side motion of the axle is not a very big issue though, if you actually calculate how much the axle moves, this is assuming that the PHB is properly level. The PHB on our cars is very long, ~40" (can't remember the exact length), meaning one inch of suspension travel yields a horizontal movement of the axle of ~0.02" (good ole Pothagorus). While not ideal, it's far from a huge issue.
Now if the PHB is not level the issue becomes much more pronounced. Let's say that the axle side of the PHB is 2 inches lower than the chassis side, not much right? Well if, in say a right hand turn, the chassis side moves up one inch the axle will move 0.06" with respect to the chassis, 3x as much for the same inch of travel.
So tuning the PHB is crucial to ride quality and general handling characteristics. Watts links are better, but a properly tuned PHB will be very close.
Buncha thread-thieves...LoL
Naw, but it's all good, I'm reading up and learning and getting some insight before I go shopping...
For the OP, though, I was looking at this system....
ROUSH Performance: 445hp ROUSHcharger Kit - Ford Mustang Supercharger
Thoughts, concerns, underground, or experiences? Thanks in advance.
Also, the motor in the s197...I'm not looking to build it. Without opening it up...how many pounds can it boost, and if I bring the car to around let's say 500 to be safe (I plan to shoot for a goal of just shy of 500 in the end), what all do I need to do to make the car operate safely, and how many boost-lbs would she need to get near that goal? The charger I'm looking at puts me around 445 with 5lbs (according to the article in the link posted above). Thanks, again.
That's what's up...are you in, currently? Where/what?
Naw, but it's all good, I'm reading up and learning and getting some insight before I go shopping...
For the OP, though, I was looking at this system....
ROUSH Performance: 445hp ROUSHcharger Kit - Ford Mustang Supercharger
Thoughts, concerns, underground, or experiences? Thanks in advance.
Also, the motor in the s197...I'm not looking to build it. Without opening it up...how many pounds can it boost, and if I bring the car to around let's say 500 to be safe (I plan to shoot for a goal of just shy of 500 in the end), what all do I need to do to make the car operate safely, and how many boost-lbs would she need to get near that goal? The charger I'm looking at puts me around 445 with 5lbs (according to the article in the link posted above). Thanks, again.
That's what's up...are you in, currently? Where/what?
The Roush unit is decent, but there are better ones. I believe most people with that dyno around 380 RWHP (the numbers they state are flywheel). The Roush unit is a small roots style unit, so it is smaller and less efficent than the other units.
If your ultimate goal is 500 RWHP, that is generally seen as the most the stock bottom end can take. Some people will say you're asking for trouble, others will swear it's safe and they have been running there for years. Either the Saleen or Whipple units are capable of getting you there, as well as some of the new units coming out. Which ever supercharger you go with, make sure it is a good kit with all the supporting mods you need (fuel pump, injectors, spark plugs, bigger MAF, so on).
The only other mods I would consider, if you're about to get a blower, would be LT headers and matching H/X-pipe. They will help with your 500HP goal.
Dan
If your ultimate goal is 500 RWHP, that is generally seen as the most the stock bottom end can take. Some people will say you're asking for trouble, others will swear it's safe and they have been running there for years. Either the Saleen or Whipple units are capable of getting you there, as well as some of the new units coming out. Which ever supercharger you go with, make sure it is a good kit with all the supporting mods you need (fuel pump, injectors, spark plugs, bigger MAF, so on).
The only other mods I would consider, if you're about to get a blower, would be LT headers and matching H/X-pipe. They will help with your 500HP goal.
Dan
I just wonder if 380 would make me happy enough or if I'd find myself wanting more sooner than later...
I'm just curious about the vortech/paxton type units that stand alone in front of the motor...is there any benefit to them over the top-mount, or top-mount vs them? Just curious. I just really like the sound the top mount ones make as you sit and idle...and to the best of my knowledge, you can't get that from the front-mounted type ones.
Looking at a Saleen unit, right now...
Oh, and also about the "500 can be dangerous for a motor," are they talking about 500fw or 500rwhp? I just wanna make sure I stay within my boundaries.
I'm just curious about the vortech/paxton type units that stand alone in front of the motor...is there any benefit to them over the top-mount, or top-mount vs them? Just curious. I just really like the sound the top mount ones make as you sit and idle...and to the best of my knowledge, you can't get that from the front-mounted type ones.
Looking at a Saleen unit, right now...
Oh, and also about the "500 can be dangerous for a motor," are they talking about 500fw or 500rwhp? I just wanna make sure I stay within my boundaries.
500 rwhp, but there's a lot of factors there. I don't claim to be an expert on it so I'll let others be more specific.
I like the Saleen unit, and you can find it for a similar price as the roushcharger. The centrifugal superchargers, vortex and paxton and a few others, make great power but their design prevents huge low end numbers like you get with roots/twin screw blowers. They tend to act more like turbos (basically a belt driven turbo instead of exhaust driven, so a bit more linear power production), not saying it's good or bad just that it is.
Dan
I like the Saleen unit, and you can find it for a similar price as the roushcharger. The centrifugal superchargers, vortex and paxton and a few others, make great power but their design prevents huge low end numbers like you get with roots/twin screw blowers. They tend to act more like turbos (basically a belt driven turbo instead of exhaust driven, so a bit more linear power production), not saying it's good or bad just that it is.
Dan
What in the design of centrifugal chargers causes them to do that, out of curiosity? I always thought the whole point in having a supercharger was to avoid the "lag" in low-end power.
Pretty much it sounds like roots-style is the way to go, then. Do the C-superchargers draw less power than the roots-style? (Now I'm just asking for my own personal knowledge)
Pretty much it sounds like roots-style is the way to go, then. Do the C-superchargers draw less power than the roots-style? (Now I'm just asking for my own personal knowledge)
It's just fundamental in the way a centi works. The centi works by spinning a vaned turbine that accelerates the incoming air outwards in a circular motion, thus why the inlet is in the center and the outlet points tangentially from the radius on the outside of the casing (wordy way of putting it). The efficiency of a centi is a product of the vane pitch and shape, some have vanes of different pitch/shape to widen the RPM range but lower the peak efficiency. So when you first get in it the blower isn't at its peak efficiency RPM so it's not making full boost, thus the lag. It's worse in a turbo because exhaust pressure is not linear with RPM, so you have to wait for the exhaust to spin up the turbo.
The roots and twin screw do not work by this same principle and don't have a low RPM lag.
Dan
The roots and twin screw do not work by this same principle and don't have a low RPM lag.
Dan
I'm thinking it's making sense in my head. I see the ups and downs of either. Now the other question I had on turbos...I saw one kit for mustangs available where the turbo is in the piping aft of the axle. WTF is that all about? I don't understand the design at all, and the website didn't give much information as to why it would be there. I also imagined turbos to be as very close to the engine as you can get it thus reducing lag as much as possible.
Did you come to Georgia to buy that car? That is my old mustang I traded in at Cobb County Toyota, I told them to give the buyer my phone number if they had any questions. In the trunk was a set of flomaster axle backs, 4.30 gears new in box and the X-cal2 with 2 custom tunes from MPH. Tim tuned it last Feb and it made 290rwhp and 308rwtq. It had a JLT Cold Air Kit, Pypes off-road H-pipe, GTA mufflers and the Shelby Wheels had only 900 miles on them. I broke both of my feet and had to trade my car in. The car was mint and had NO PROBLEMS, they gave me $20,000 trade in value June 2008. Congrats on the purchase take care of her, I washed and waxed her twice a week the entire time I had it. Let me know if you have any questions.
Nick
Nick
Wow... I'm honestly speechless. That's incredible.
The car was sold for 21,9xx. I purchased her from Toyota in June of 2008 from Cobb County Toyota. I tried talking them down on the price, but they said that was literally as low as they could go without losing money on it. The car was purchased as a reward to myself for graduating boot camp and moving on into my career with the Marines. You have taken IMMACULATE care of the car. I assure you, she's still being taken care of. My permanent residence is in Ga. Only one week ago did my girlfriend drive the car out here to me. It's in need of a wash and wax, but I assure you it's been kept clean otherwise. Only mother's and maguiers touches the interior. Only two misfortunes have happened since retiring your ownership. While at training someone dinged the rear quarter with their door, and I've added a minor scuff to the back right wheel when backing into a parking spot. Both are soon to be taken care of.
The dealer never offered me a phone number, and the only thing they handed me was the Xcal2. I really wish I'd seen the axle-back and/or the gears, though! That kind of pisses me off. The story they gave me was that the original owner purchased the car and was an officer. The officer's wife became pregnant and he had to sell the car because of the upcoming baby.
I can't wait to get a little more done with the car. I was hoping to use my tax return to add some pieces to her and get a little more out of her. Unfortunately....my girlfriend had other plans. LoL. The car will be used for some autocrossing events, and is driven every day by me here on base. I CANNOT express to you how many compliments your car has received from marines, people on the street, my dad...everyone. I've many times been asked if it's "one of them super snakes" or "the fast one" or even "the shelby?" I assure them she's a fast one, but she's only the GT model.
Never in a million did I think I'd get to speak with the original owner.
The car was sold for 21,9xx. I purchased her from Toyota in June of 2008 from Cobb County Toyota. I tried talking them down on the price, but they said that was literally as low as they could go without losing money on it. The car was purchased as a reward to myself for graduating boot camp and moving on into my career with the Marines. You have taken IMMACULATE care of the car. I assure you, she's still being taken care of. My permanent residence is in Ga. Only one week ago did my girlfriend drive the car out here to me. It's in need of a wash and wax, but I assure you it's been kept clean otherwise. Only mother's and maguiers touches the interior. Only two misfortunes have happened since retiring your ownership. While at training someone dinged the rear quarter with their door, and I've added a minor scuff to the back right wheel when backing into a parking spot. Both are soon to be taken care of.
The dealer never offered me a phone number, and the only thing they handed me was the Xcal2. I really wish I'd seen the axle-back and/or the gears, though! That kind of pisses me off. The story they gave me was that the original owner purchased the car and was an officer. The officer's wife became pregnant and he had to sell the car because of the upcoming baby.
I can't wait to get a little more done with the car. I was hoping to use my tax return to add some pieces to her and get a little more out of her. Unfortunately....my girlfriend had other plans. LoL. The car will be used for some autocrossing events, and is driven every day by me here on base. I CANNOT express to you how many compliments your car has received from marines, people on the street, my dad...everyone. I've many times been asked if it's "one of them super snakes" or "the fast one" or even "the shelby?" I assure them she's a fast one, but she's only the GT model.
Never in a million did I think I'd get to speak with the original owner.
If you are mechanically inclined and have access to just a few mechanics tools, save your self a ton of money and install the SC yourself. I did the Kenne Bell full kit (with a 9psi pulley, intercooler, etc.) with my wife helping and it went really well. We did it in my neighbors garage. You do not have to be a race car mechanic or NASA engineer to do the install. Just read (and follow) the instructions and take your time. When you're done, you have some bragging rights over those that installed with a credit card. Not that hiring it done is a bad thing, but it's cool if you can do it yourself...
klaw
Member
Wow this is great, I'm glad she got a good owner and I'm glad the dealership was at least half way honest with you. I am a Corporal at the Cherokee County Sheriffs Office and my wife and I were expecting. I fractured both feet and tore the tendons in both of them and was out of work for six weeks. My wife used the fact that she was prego to barter a better deal, I got a crew cab Tacoma for 19,xxx and had it for about 3 months and I was sick without the Mustang. I found a 06 Auto GT for 16,000 and traded the Tacoma in on it.
For the time being I have to have an auto due to my feet injuries. My plan for her was a bad ass N/A build up with some huge rear tires thats why I was going to go 4.30's. With the huge rear tire the car would drive like it had 4.10's. You should leave the 3.55 gear as is if you plan on going with a roots/twinscrew supercharger.
I'm pissed that they didn't give you my number and all the parts, I'm anal about things and I wanted the new owner to know the full history behind their purchase, hell I even gave them the dyno print out. If you ever need any help or mod advise give me a yell, I also have a extra dyno sheet if you would like it just pm me your address and I'll mail it out. When you get back to town look me up and I'll take you out for a beer! Thanks for your service to our county. Here are some pics of her on the dyno.
For the time being I have to have an auto due to my feet injuries. My plan for her was a bad ass N/A build up with some huge rear tires thats why I was going to go 4.30's. With the huge rear tire the car would drive like it had 4.10's. You should leave the 3.55 gear as is if you plan on going with a roots/twinscrew supercharger.
I'm pissed that they didn't give you my number and all the parts, I'm anal about things and I wanted the new owner to know the full history behind their purchase, hell I even gave them the dyno print out. If you ever need any help or mod advise give me a yell, I also have a extra dyno sheet if you would like it just pm me your address and I'll mail it out. When you get back to town look me up and I'll take you out for a beer! Thanks for your service to our county. Here are some pics of her on the dyno.
