Looking for Idea/advice on build

[RangerJoe]

Don't want the new engine prone to detonation.... I was not going to zero the deck on this one, just plane it and move on. With that said the piston will have a .04 gasket and will he .015 in the hole. That's a .055 total distance down in the bore, at roughly 9.5:1 comp ratio. I only have 2 piston options at this point one has the factory style 351 dish in the middle and the other has 4 valve reliefs with what appears to be an otherwise flat top.

Educate me.

What are the cc volumes of both pistons? While researching a 357 build about a year or so ago, Woody (Ford Strokers) commented that there were really no good 357 pistons because the market was not there for it. He commented that no one was building nonstroker motors anymore. That being said, I think he recommended a wiesco piston to me, but I don't remember a part number or specifics.

Me personally, I don't care for the individual TB, but I am more of a function over looks guy. They also just don't seem to belong on a fox body style car, but that's just me.

Joe

 

[a91what]

What are the cc volumes of both pistons? While researching a 357 build about a year or so ago, Woody (Ford Strokers) commented that there were really no good 357 pistons because the market was not there for it. He commented that no one was building nonstroker motors anymore. That being said, I think he recommended a wiesco piston to me, but I don't remember a part number or specifics.

Me personally, I don't care for the individual TB, but I am more of a function over looks guy. They also just don't seem to belong on a fox body style car, but that's just me.

Joe

Icon - 11cc
Sealed power - 13.5cc

 

[General karthief]

I would be disappointed if you switch to the stack itb setup, it is impressive, but anybody with a credit card and a couple wrenches can stick that stuff on a sbf (or most any sb engine) then open the hood and say 'look what I did'.
Not many can stick a blower off a jag on a sbf, build the accessory belt drive in their shop that is about the size of most bathrooms using hand tools and stuff you had under the bench and found in the bone yard.
Open that hood next to a car with the stack itbs and see who gets the most attention.
Just my opinion.

 

[RangerJoe]

Icon - 11cc
Sealed power - 13.5cc

I don't think that's enough difference to matter on compression ratio. Are they made of the same grade aluminum? If not, I would choose the stronger grade and I would also look at the ring land thickness at the narrowest point, since you are boosted.

Joe

 

[a91what]

The icons are more expensive but the sealed power will possibly need to be flycut larger

 

[RangerJoe]

The icons are more expensive but the sealed power will possibly need to be flycut larger

Just a quick summit search shows that dss probably has the best selection for 351 pistons. Not a huge fan of their stuff, but at your power levels you would probably be just fine.

Joe

 

[a91what]

Just a quick summit search shows that dss probably has the best selection for 351 pistons. Not a huge fan of their stuff, but at your power levels you would probably be just fine.

Joe

I like the dss stuff, I am trying to reuse my totalseal ring pack (gapless) so I'm using a 5/16 ring

 

[CarMichael Angelo]

I would be disappointed if you switch to the stack itb setup, it is impressive, but anybody with a credit card and a couple wrenches can stick that stuff on a sbf (or most any sb engine) then open the hood and say 'look what I did'.
Not many can stick a blower off a jag on a sbf, build the accessory belt drive in their shop that is about the size of most bathrooms using hand tools and stuff you had under the bench and found in the bone yard.
Open that hood next to a car with the stack itbs and see who gets the most attention.
Just my opinion.

No,...that isn't correct..
Not everybody can tune that system, and that will scare away a lot of those guys with credit cards.
Inglese has been making Weber and ITB systems for SBF for decades...

You know why you have only seen about one of these out of every 1000 at a car show? Price, and complexity. This system, the last time I checked a price was like 3k.

Al I know is that when my engine was running on one tb, and I switched it over, and changing nothing else, it idles much more civil at a much lower RPM now. Since it's a different turbo, I cannot testify as to any potential power gain or loss. I do know that by themselves, without the benefit of the turbo, the engine wasn't powerful enough.

But I didn't have a 6 Liter V8 engine either.

There are multiple YouTube vids out there of 289/302 Weber equipped drive bys. The engine will have its own distinct sound without the benefit of a common plenum. By the very nature of the beast, a 393 with heads and a cam and a single TB on an intake will make 450hp without having to try and figure out how to mount, and drive that blower.

 

[xecute]

Great points made.


If it were my car, I'd use a stock numbers matching block,


To avoid this:-

add block support on the valley,

a crank girdle on the bottom,

block rock in the cylinder walls.

An intermediate step that works for air flow and durability is:

1. Bigger throttle bodies.
2. Better bore texture to avoid blow by from poor rod ratios, and
3. Downgrade to a non forged piston with modern ring pack.

A proper performance engine with Port or partly indirect port EFi engines that aren't responsive to bigger throttle bodies or more than one throttle bodies most likely have leaks or fuel standoff matters, some of it, injection pulse timing, but really nothing can stop a good bank fire engine. The total package of the upper and lower manifold is so important. FRP have IMHO made some ludicris an inacruate claims about 425 hp being possiable with the stock GT40 EFi intake. Its so flow limited because of its centralised runner flow path that its useless talking about CFM. Ford Australias infusion of Modular 4.6 Quad Cam intake trumpets and a huge MAF sensor and TB just to make a piddly 5.6 (std bore 342 stroker) punch out 335 is testimony of this.

This is typical of nearly all prodction V8 EFi systems that aren't 45 IDM or 32-42 DCNF Weber based.

Maserati's GT5000 was nailing the Mechanical Injection intake runner design, even with the crazy injector direction.

But it was a for-runner to single throttle body EFi in intake design

The Ford Windsor 5.0/5.8 intake has the same issue the early Rover 3.5 liter/Triumph TR8 EFi had....a flow rate that, compared even to a set of Twin CDS175's, simply sucked. It wouldn't make 142 hp in the Aussie versions, and was pushing it to make 195hp in the Vitesse. In a Race situation, it needed more throttle body area to make 350 hp.

Yet the Twin throttle body homogated for Tom Walkinshaw Racing 1986 Rover Vitesse is simply awesome. An external Q jet on the side of an English Wheeled US Mail letter box.

Inside, the 142 to 195 hp version looked pretty cool, but it principally lacked throttle body area.

The twin throttle body fixed all that.

In any Fox chassis based Ford, Jack T's low hoodline hits 351 style ambitions again.

The ideal way is the following...but it won't package easily.

The 1988 Commodore SS Group A and the last 1991 Group A were, in race trim, 500 hp bank fire, 100 hp per liter V8's with docility off throttle.

On a Capri or with a 4" glass fibre hood, you could do this


View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEOjUxZgocY



The version above, this is a 680 hp monster..


It doesn't have to be Eye Tee Bee...

 

[xecute]

Que the Ford Australia and ProDrive stroker 342 1.169 " compression registernon forged piston development. (It was ProDrive who bought Aston Martins Tickford tuning company that David Flint operated). 16 piston choices were sorted through from ACL to CP to Mahale to SRS to Zollener. They decided that block spliting and detonation could be dialed out by forming a healthy oil boundary layer, and that allowed a cheaper hypereutectic cast aluminum piston with thin rings and shallow deck 0.478 " lower than the stock 1.647 - 1.7 or so 302/351 W or Boss or whatever flat top.IMHO, get a focus on improving the rod ratio, thin down the rings and compression deck, and back off on forged pistons unless your gonna see prolonged high BEMP. The stock 8.2" block is a very smooth and detonation resistance comes from keeping a tight reign on advance and air fuel. Stock AIR EGR and closed loop 5.0 were designed for towing and under load durabilty in 50 thousand mile aged engines that had to still pass a fed sniffer test. If your budget goes to forged, then you'll need to think less about dish volume, and more about bore surfacing to suit the ring pack, the best design is the ovaliod trench, the four eye brows are more for people who like to make a stock D8 to E5 5.0 carry some more compression without chamber changes. Ford decided to use existing inventory to get the 82 GT's and rebirthed 5.8's (Lightening, R351,Saleen) back on track, the two pistons are for them.

 

[xecute]

I have the piston rings [total seal gapless] 357 cid is plenty for the parts i have to build it with... here is a run down..
-my ported 2.02/1.6 GT40 irons with 7/16 studs and guide plates [unless a money tree sprouts from the yard somewhere]
-My M112 blower setup, on a 357 it will make around 8psi with very little intake heating and less pressure means less parasitic loss
-my billet cam 575 lift 224i/236e custom grind ....... after talking with the cam grinder he thinks it will work very well in the 357 but wont be enough cam in a 393+

The main purpose of the 351 build is to get the stoutness of the block without going dart, the stock crank and truck rods will handle stupid power.

I'd use the pistons and rings, and have it lazer profiled to meet the Total Seal requirements.

My first Cleveland 351c build in 1988 was a forged engine failure due to piston to bore clearance.

First, you must use for the pistons you have, the right bore and ring gap specs. Before it gets to that point, you must have the bore texture right when it reaches the final 4.030 bore target. You do that by plateau honing.

This is not an advertorial, and please excused me if I'm Book Bashin' ya Steve.

A complete list of honing procedures, recommendations and tech tips are available at www.hastingspistonrings.com/tech-tips-faqs, www.totalseal.com or www.sunnen.com/honing-tips.

Definitions:
Profilometer – an instrument used to measure a surface's profile in order to quantify roughness. A contact Profilometer records a surface profile by moving a diamond stylus across a specified distance, with a specified contact force.
Rk – The average core roughness depth based on the Rpk and Rvk measurements.
Rpk – The mean height of peaks protruding from the roughness core profile.
Rvk – The mean depth of the valleys protruding from the roughness core profile.
Rz – The mean highest peak-to-valley measurement taken from five samples.

General gist of it is here:

http://www.laneautomotive.com/lanemobile/techpeaksandvalleys.html


Total Seal diagram below (a better one is in the three page blurb below copied from Issue 129 of Australian Street Fords).


The deep scores are the valley cross hatching, the rest is in the plateau hone to smoothen 45 degree included angle cross hatch so you get the right relief map for the rings to flow against the moderate boundary layer of oil.

The critical measurements are not average peak to peak roughness, but the boundary layer surface texture figures.

Plateau honing a cylinder block is how the boundary layer is endorced.

A Sunnen Laser profilometer measures the Rpk, Rk and Rvk.

If you've gotten valve springs and piston to valve clearance right, the main and cam bearings right, and the rods right, and you've tuned it out of the incipent detonation era, then all engine failures in Windsors are blow by matters due to not following the modern laser profile requirments.

A lot like peak CFM figures, Ra averages are useless for setting good bore texture. Sunnen suggest that "brushing the bore after honing makes a huge improvement in the surface finish, whether diamonds or conventional honing stones were used to hone the bore. You can get the overall Ra down to 8 to 12, with RPK (relative peak height) numbers in the 5 to 15 range, and RVK (relative valley depth) numbers in the 15 to 30 range."

The Rpk, Rk and Rvk are the figures to aim for, Not Ra.

NASA totally nailed lubrication and surface roughness calculations. When building a 351 from parts, the latent value of an iron block in the hand can be kept by going through the science of cylinder bore prepartion.

As for the intake, I'd use what you have, but consider how you air flow limited the GT40's are, and the lower intake is. Injector postions, well it'll change if you make up adaptor plates.


Your excellence in MS-ing it can be backed up by others in the building process.

I am an advocate of aftermarket blocks, because if you break one, it'll still have residual value. However, in your case, the 351 W block can be gusseted by the upper location strakes and the lower girdle in the pictures in my previous posts.

The lower crank girdle, and plateau honed block were standard ways Ford Australia tied a low quality thin wall 5 liter Windsor together to turn it into a 5.6 stroker.

Read this, and then get the piston to bore texture right.

 

[xecute]

Since you've got the hood space for sure.

If you've got a 351 w 4bbl intake, use the old 93-96 460 Twin Throttle body MAF, and run it with eight injectors to get your 351w mobile.

The un venturied 4bbl intake flows enough for 470 hp.

Since you've got the hood space, two 460 throttle bodies and an Edelbrock #7585 351w dual quad 8bbl intake would work real fine with two 93-96 EFi units.

It would look totally mind bending....

Horizontally

 

[a91what]

So the Maf is in the throttle body on that setup? Looks like it could be very cool.

 

[a91what]

Only other issue is that intake will have to be modified to accept fuel injectors.

 

[xecute]

So the Maf is in the throttle body on that setup? Looks like it could be very cool.

Yeah, like all the 2-bbl throttle bodies on EFi F trucks and E vans. Common as mud. The later ones had okay resolution.

I just thought of you when I saw the truck stuff again when discussing the common air flow problems with factory 5.0 and 5.8 Windsor OHV port EFI intakes Ford used.

The whole switch to single 4-bbls back in the sixties (spreadbores with mechnaical secondaries) got US V8 engines away from high rpm power loss. Ford EFi brought strangulation to the top end again, because Ford decided not to fortify the 5.8 until the last year of OBD-I and EECIV.

The 460 truck and van engines clearly got the air flow thing sorted.

Sequential, MAF'd MS3X with just enough air flow to hit the 500 hp target. Well, throttle body area, I mean.

The Truck/Van 4.9 EFi six had twin 47 mm blades, the 5.0, twin51 mm. Not sure what the 460 has, but they sure look B-I-G!

 

[a91what]

Not sure how any of that will relate to my blower though, I entend to use it.. now it is fed with a single 75mm TB... that's limiting the blower somewhat, and will limit it further on the larger displacement engine. I have the option to run my "other" inlet manifold and use a 4bbl mount. I have a elbow to convert from 4bbl to a 90mm LS TB so that may be the option used.

 

[xecute]

Only other issue is that intake will have to be modified to accept fuel injectors.

True.

I'd personally look at how a set of flitch plates might hold the stock 5.8 EFi rails. Maybee you could use an old used dual quad 289 intake, and add spacer plates on the outside to mount the injectors.

The 9.500 verse 8.206" 351/5.8 verses 302/5.0 deck differences might just allow you to use a stock 289-302 type intake, and the existing truck 5.8 EFi could maybee just fit out side on the flitches.

The Holden Group A intake is on an 8.9 deck engine, and they used to use a reworked 302 Windsor intake manifold to fit EFI heads back in the day. The Holden V8 uses 4.40" bore spacings, the Ford, 4.375", so with V8's, a lot of parts are able to be swapped over.

Time to think over your options with a cost focus. The lower end budget allows you to look at these options because there are a lot 460 EFi units around, and probably a number of tunnel ram or low deck dual quad 289 or 302 intakes.

A tunnel port q code 302 intake might work if someone has one.

This is all getting back to making EFi systems look like something totally different!

 

[xecute]

Not sure how any of that will relate to my blower though, I entend to use it.. now it is fed with a single 75mm TB... that's limiting the blower somewhat, and will limit it further on the larger displacement engine. I have the option to run my "other" inlet manifold and use a 4bbl mount. I have a elbow to convert from 4bbl to a 90mm LS TB so that may be the option used.

Hmm. I did kind of think that your M112 might fit on a 4bbl intake, with some kind of Day of the Triffids 2-bbl 460 MAF comming out the back.


I think you'll find a way that suits you. just some thoughts!

 

[xecute]

Long, long ago, I got into the EECV version of the SUV and truck engines. First, I mapped my 98 XLT 4.0 sohc using Car Code, and liked the system a lot becasue of how easy it was to see the ignition ramps, and activates PID's. I ran my Acer Labtop in real time, but blew the sage log data away when my hard drive failed. Tristan in New Zealand found the 103 pinner not bad to work with.

Here is a post on the 1996 MAF 460 version of the above type of system.

http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/289362-eec-v-for-last-460s-3.html

I have an EFI 460 in my Kaiser military truck (M-715 1-1/4 ton) that I recently converted to mass-air. The computer and wiring harness came from a 1996 F-350 California/Massachusets emissions truck. The conversion was prompted partly from my desire to have Mass Air (for future engine mods) and need to add wiring/change EEC-IV processor to support my recent swap from C6 to E4OD. The results were worth the effort.

I can't believe how much better the engine runs with the EEC-V processor. The idle is smoother and WAY, WAY more stable. The EEC-IV (1993 harness/'puter) would routinely have hunting idle issues and/or stalling while in gear no matter how I had the TPS, minimum airflow and timing adjusted. I made no adjustments or chages to the engine, just swapped wiring and 'puter and all those problems went away! The other thing that's gone is a tendancy for the speed-density system to run rich at idle. BTW, the motor is internally stock. I have some intake mods (see below) and the exhaust consists of Heddman EFI 460 headers (crap, BTW, Banks are MUCH better), Flowmaster Y pipe (dual 2-1/2" to single 3-1/2"), mandrel bent 3.5" tubing and single Edelbrock 3.5" in/out Victor 409 stainless muffler. I run 39.5" swampers with 5.13's and a Detroit Locker out back. I have no problem lighting up the back tires at will with this setup and outrunning just about anything that isn't a "performance car or truck" from a stop to about 30-40mph. Oh yeah, the motor is a VERY tired 1987 longblock that has low compression in two cylinders and burns about THREE QUARTS of oil per 30 gallons of fuel! (Part of the credit goes to the fact that an M-715 isn't much heavier than a 1/2 ton pickup at 5,500#.)Here is a short list of parts used to make the swap and some install notes:


1. Engine wiring harness is 1996-97 F-350 7.5L CA/MA emissions.

2. MAF from aforementioned application (6-pin plug) or earlier Lincoln Mark-VIII (4-pin plug). Both are 80mm MAFs and appear to have the same MAF curves. I have two different harnesses made so I can use either MAF and the engine runs identically on both. Also, my research seems to indicate the 1996-97 460 MAF is the same part number as the MAF on later Mark VIII's. Apparently that's when they went to the 6-pin Sumitomo connector. The part # on the 1996 460 MAF is F50F-12B579-AA, which supercedes to F50Y--12B579-AA, which supercedes to F8LZ-12B579-AA (notice the latter is a Lincoln part #?). I did not use the air intake plumbing that came with the MAF, but the airbox lid appears the same as other MAF-equipped F-series trucks and Broncos however the intake elbow and "Y" pipe is larger to accomodate the bigger MAF. I already had a custom intake which consists of a Lincoln Mark-VII (not a typo, Mk7) airbox, 80mm MAF with MAF adapter, 80mm to oval intake elbow from 1999 Lightning, and BBK dual 62mm Throttlebody for 4.6 Cobra/6.8 V10.

3. EEC-V processor from 1996-1997 F-350 or E-350 7.5L CA/MA emissions. The original computer I used was from a F-350, catch code "FEZ2", engineering #F6TF-12A650-AMC, service part #F6TZ-12A650-AMD. That one had a bad SS2 driver and was replaced with one from a 1996 E-350, whose #'s I don't have handy right now. The interesting thing to note here is the 1996-97 460 MAF F-trucks did NOT have air injection, but the vans DID. The F-truck engine harness had plastic caps over the TAB/TAD solenoid plugs. My truck does not have to have air injection so it was removed to make room for a second A/C compressor. When I switched to the van computer I had to add 1.2k ohm resistors across those plugs to eliminate the trouble codes.

4. These computers/applications are OBD-II. That means an OBD-II DLC (data link connector) instead of the EEC-IV "STAR" diagnostic plug. It also means some additional emission control hardware. First there are THREE heated O2 sensors. They are Bank 1 Sensor 1 (Right manifold), Bank 2 Sensor 1 (Left Manifold) and Bank 1 Sensor 2 (after cat). The first two are similar to the 5.0L Mustang setup. The 3rd is for measuring catalyst efficiency. At the present time I don't have the 3rd hooked up and have no problems other than a couple codes that set. I have already wired up a dummy load to simulate the heater circuit which takes care one code. I and still working on a "o2 sensor simulator" which mimics the signal generated by a "real" after cat o2 sensor. These are readily availbale for purchase already, BTW. The O2 sensors are the 4-wire type, some compatible parts #'s include: Bosch (autozone) #15717 $49.99 10" wire, Carquest #75-1649 $49.66 16" wire, Carquest #75-1651 $48.14 6" wire.

5. A PWM EVAP purge valve is used, like other OBD-II Ford trucks instead of the CANP valve on the left side of the engine. There is no fuel tank vapor pressure sensor, however. You can omit this and put a 1.2K dummy load on the plug but it will still set a trouble code. Apparently, the EEC-V opens the EVAP purge at idle and checks for an idle speed fluctuation. Lacking this fluctuation, a trouble code is set. No real problem and easy enough to convert to the new style Evap purge valve.

6. A Flow-sensing EGR system is used instead of the EGR lift sensor, again like other OBD-II Ford applications. This system measures the pressure drop across an engineered restriction in the EGR pipe between the exhaust manifold and EGR valve. The good news is you can rewire the plug and connect it to the old style EGR lift sensor (EVP) and there seem to be no ill effects -- the EGR works, the engine runs fine (no surging or pinging) and no trouble codes are set.

7. A "Misfire Sensor" has been added. It is basically a VRS Crank Position sensor like other Ford engines, except with a 4 tooth wheel instead of 36-1 teeth. The front timing cover was redesigned to provide a mount for this sensor and the 4 tooth reluctor is pressed onto the crank balancer. The new timing cover is easy to identify as it has no fuel pump opening on the left side (which previous timing covers had a block-off plate there). The good news is it is NOT NEEDED for the engine to run as the primary timing signal is still the PIP sensor in the distributor. The bad news is it will set a trouble code if not connected/not functioning. My engine has been running fine without it for months and ignition advance works fine.

8. This system *IS* SFI (sequential injection). The computer is pre-programmed with the correct engine firingorder and will work fine as long as your distributor reluctor is the "Signature PIP" type. Most EFI 460's have the correct reluctor, which is easy to identify by 7 wide teeth and one narrow one.

9. This system uses the newer BLACK TFI-IV ignition module, and NOT the Grey one. They are NOT interchangable, but the engine will run with the wrong one but may exhibit hard starting and misfire. The big difference is the BLACK modules rely on the EEC processor to control dwell, the GREY modules control dwell internally as a function of RPM. The other difference is one of the pins changes functions. On the GREY modules, one pin is hot while cranking to increase dwell to make the engine easier to start. The BLACK modules use this pin to internally generate the IDM (Ignition Diagnostic Monitor) signal the EEC uses to make sure the ignition is working correctly.

10. This system uses an airbox-mounted IAT (Intake Air Temp) sensor instead of the manifold-mounted one. The connector is the "new" style Sumitomo type instead of the traditional Ford round 2-pin. The two styles of sensors appear to be electrically identical, but failure to move the sensor to the airbox will result in artificially high readings and fueling/timing errors (ie ignition retard when air temp is very high and engine is under heavy load).


11. A few other sensors have also been updated to the new Sumitomo connectors. They are: ECT (Engine Coolant Temp) and TPS (Throttle Position Sensor). These new style sensors are used on most other Fords 1996-up.

12. The EEC-V expects a 8k PPM (pulse per mile) VSS (vehicle speed sensor) signal from the PSOM (speedo module) just like other EEC-IV equipped 1987-1997 F trucks (and unlike other EEC-V applications that use a 16k or 40k PPM VSS signal). It is also compatible with the Ford VRS (variable reluctance sensor) speed sensors. I was able to use a F-450/550 extension housing on my E4OD which has a OSS (Output Shaft Speed) sensor boss in it (and is also a much stronger cast iron part, instead of cast aluminum as the F-150/250/350 housing are). I had a 3 tooth reluctor made that is an interference fit on the E4OD's output shaft (the F-550's had a 18 tooth reluctor and matching splined output shaft). The result is a perfect 8k PPM signal to feed to the EEC-V (and Ford CruiseControl module) that is independant of the transfer case low range gearing. This means the shift scheduling is not affected by using low range even though my truck has two different low range ratios (2:1 or 4:1), none of which match the stock BW t-case ratios.


I have some pics here: Mass air 460 pics and here: 460 mass air EEC-V and ouput speed sensor .

Feel free to ask any questions as I plan to be asking some questions of my own about my engine build-up. The MAF setup came complete with a 1996 460 engine (fan to flexplate) that I'm planning to turn into a firebreathing 513+ci monster.

 

[a91what]

Let's talk pistons....
Do I really truly need a forged slug with 10psi or less? Tons of guys use stock shortblocks and throw boost at them... they all have hyper pistons, every single explorer engine with a turbo has a hyper piston... Buick gn had a hyper piston.....

Talk me into spending the extra cost of a forged piston.. or not and buying other parts.