Nothing. Thats about all I have nowand what do you have against cars with 306 horsepower???
Nothing. Thats about all I have nowand what do you have against cars with 306 horsepower???
Well ask yourself why that is? I'm betting there are more Shelby's left than Boss 429's for starters, not to mention the retarded popularity of anything with a Shelby badge on it. Also you can't be sure that what you've seen aren't clones.
So? That's just my personal preference. If we're talking about all-out performance, many of the newer Cobras and Super Snakes make the old beasts of the 60's seem mild by comparison. Performance numbers from back in the day are fairly meaningless, anyway, because they were using different measurements for HP numbers back then than today ... but even then, I seriously doubt even a 429 Boss could hold a candle to the high-end S197's of today.
Again, between the '67 and the '69, I just prefer the styling lines of the '67. Not EVERYTHING boils down strictly to performance stats, after all. If straight-line performance was all that mattered, I wouldn't be driving a Fox for my weekend toy right now.
... i mean check this beast out Lawman Super Boss...
Yes and if you look at the cars the 429 was rated at laughable 375hp and we all know they put out far more power than that, and if you want to compare to the high-end s197's they are all supercharged, supercharge a boss 429 and your lookin at insane HP and torque numbers, little modification to the drive train and the boss would own a s197 i mean check this beast out Lawman Super Boss
thats all well and good but im not seeing any torque numbers in those results, torque wins races not horsepower, and if these cars were truly putting out those numbers how could they have achived the somewhat impressive track times they didI doubt that - as someone else mentioned they measured HP different back in the sixties (SAE Gross) and you cant compare those numbers with modern cars.
Furthermore, the car manufacturers back then werent exactly accurate when announcing hp numbers - I believe it was more a game of 'think about a suitable number'..
In September 99 Mustang Monthly tested all the classic big-block Mustangs on a dyno (Dynojet).
As benchmark they had a 99 GT (stock 4.6) which measured 244 rwhp at 5000 rpm.
A stock but apparently somewhat tired '70 Boss 429 managed only 230 rwhp at 5100 rpm.
Best was the 71 Mach 1 429 Super Cobra Jet at 246 rwph at 5100 rpm...
A 70 GT500 with 428 Cobra Jet managed 233 rwhp.
68 GT500KR with 428 Cobra Jet managed 237 rwhp.
67 390 GTA managed only 165 rwph at 4100 rpm.
These cars were said to be either stock or restored to stock specs - but some of them would have benefitted from a fresh tune up (Boss and the 429 SCJ - both perhaps good for say 10 more rwhp), but we are still a very long way from the SAE Gross numbers quoted when these cars were new.
thats all well and good but im not seeing any torque numbers in those results, torque wins races not horsepower, and if these cars were truly putting out those numbers how could they have achived the somewhat impressive track times they did
Yeah besides we all know that magazine articles are the end all beat all final word in car facts right?
I'm sure if they re-ran all those cars again or someone went back and posted the torque numbers, they still wouldn't be nearly as impressive as the old-school figures would have liked people to believe. Folks seem to think every muscle car made before 1974 was some kind of mythical beast that made all sorts of insane amounts of power and that nothing ever will out-perform those magical engines of days gone by ... and then if someone points out differences in quarter-mile times, then the argument goes back to the quality of tires back then VS now and how they'd do sooooo much better with modern tires and suspension.
Maybe so ... but we're talking STOCK FOR STOCK. Those cars came STOCK with crappy tires and a crappy suspension. Yes, they could perform better with modern tires and suspension mods and a blower and all that ... but then it wouldn't be stock anymore, now, would it? You'd have to beef those cars up to get them to hang with the cars that're available today ... in which case, to be fair, you'd have to also allow suspension mods and tires and other upgrades for modern cars, and then the whole argument has totally lost its point because it has nothing to do with factory-spec cars.
They were great cars FOR THEIR TIME, but their performance glory has been surpassed by the mid 1990's with the LT-1 and LS-1 F-Body cars and the 4.6L DOHC Cobras. Hell, a lot of '87-'93 5.0's (stock for stock) could probably show the old late-60's 302's a thing or two at the track.
At least it gives a more accurate and realistic measurement than the old SAE Gross figures. They may not be 100% dead-on representative of all those cars from back in the day, but even with a 20-horsepower margin of error, the stuff being sold today would run circles around those pretty but stripped-down, uncomfortable, terribly-handling ol' beasts ... even with the new cars having all that heavy-arsed sound-deading, all the electronic optional doohickies, and rockin' some ice-cold A/C full blast the whole time.
I'm sure if they re-ran all those cars again or someone went back and posted the torque numbers, they still wouldn't be nearly as impressive as the old-school figures would have liked people to believe. Folks seem to think every muscle car made before 1974 was some kind of mythical beast that made all sorts of insane amounts of power and that nothing ever will out-perform those magical engines of days gone by ... and then if someone points out differences in quarter-mile times, then the argument goes back to the quality of tires back then VS now and how they'd do sooooo much better with modern tires and suspension.
Maybe so ... but we're talking STOCK FOR STOCK. Those cars came STOCK with crappy tires and a crappy suspension. Yes, they could perform better with modern tires and suspension mods and a blower and all that ... but then it wouldn't be stock anymore, now, would it? You'd have to beef those cars up to get them to hang with the cars that're available today ... in which case, to be fair, you'd have to also allow suspension mods and tires and other upgrades for modern cars, and then the whole argument has totally lost its point because it has nothing to do with factory-spec cars.
They were great cars FOR THEIR TIME, but their performance glory has been surpassed by the mid 1990's with the LT-1 and LS-1 F-Body cars and the 4.6L DOHC Cobras. Hell, a lot of '87-'93 5.0's (stock for stock) could probably show the old late-60's 302's a thing or two at the track.
At least it gives a more accurate and realistic measurement than the old SAE Gross figures. They may not be 100% dead-on representative of all those cars from back in the day, but even with a 20-horsepower margin of error, the stuff being sold today would run circles around those pretty but stripped-down, uncomfortable, terribly-handling ol' beasts ... even with the new cars having all that heavy-arsed sound-deading, all the electronic optional doohickies, and rockin' some ice-cold A/C full blast the whole time.
Dave, I like you and usually agree with most things you say on here, don't take offense to this on a personal level, but I can't even begin to address everything that's wrong with this statement. Have you ever driven, driven in, or even-- maybe-- driven by a muscle car? You're comparing apples to oranges, to say the least; apples to broccoli, maybe. The feel of a muscle car cannot be compared to anything on the road today, period. They're a completely different animal altogether, and ANIMALISTIC is what sets them apart and makes them unique. The feel of the "crappy" suspension, the burn of hot black vinyl on your skin on an August afternoon, the heat from the trans tunnel on your right thigh, the lack of sound deadening allowing every nuianced sound and exhaust fume into the cabin, the lope of the cam trembling the hood and fenders, stabbing the throttle and feeling big block torque, cranking the window down, clicking on a lap belt-only "safety restraint system" with no air bag and a steel dashboard staring back at you, pumping the brake pedal to build pressure to stop with drum brakes on all four corners-- that's driving. And, honestly, you won't ever relate unless you've loved a machine like that and let it become an extension of your personality, like I have.
... plus smelling like 93 octane everytime you get out of the car is a plus.