Build Thread Enola- Finishing touches
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I went out before I left for the graveyard shift and pulled the plugs...
1,3,5,6 look normal enough...
2 looks slightly rich
7 looks like it has never fired not one time but it's not wet
4,8 look very dark
Look at this objectively... 1356 are all on one injector output.
2748 are on the other, i think I may have either a bad connection or a failed injector on this injector circuit. I'm not sure how it would work if one injector opened... would the other 3 then over fuel?
Also it's odd that both the richest cylinders are the back 2... maybe my open plenum idea was not so good...
1,3,5,6 look normal enough...
2 looks slightly rich
7 looks like it has never fired not one time but it's not wet
4,8 look very dark
Look at this objectively... 1356 are all on one injector output.
2748 are on the other, i think I may have either a bad connection or a failed injector on this injector circuit. I'm not sure how it would work if one injector opened... would the other 3 then over fuel?
Also it's odd that both the richest cylinders are the back 2... maybe my open plenum idea was not so good...
First guess: Lean pop - do a cylinder balance test.
Arbitrary guesses aside: Jr's Surging Idle Checklist
I have a serious question for the collective....
Let's talk fuel puddling, when I built this setup the size of the blower dictated that I use a non ideal injector angle that has them spraying at the floor of the runner.
That's strike 1
Strike 2, i remember when I was Doing the assembly that the floor of the intake was LOWER than the head.. so the fuel that is puddling has a sizeable lip to overcome.. why I didn't stop myself I'm unsure.
Strike3 both rear plugs are loaded up with fuel I believe this is because the fuel is running the length of the intake over time to the rear cylinders air flows this way in my setup and they are also the lowest point the way the car is sitting....
So what can I do? Ideas?
I think I will have to pull the whole assembly off and redo the gaskets but I don't know how I am going to get them thick enough. This intake was used so I don't know if it was milled. Can you stack intake gaskets on an boosted application? I would think not maybe you race guys would know.
Let's talk fuel puddling, when I built this setup the size of the blower dictated that I use a non ideal injector angle that has them spraying at the floor of the runner.
That's strike 1
Strike 2, i remember when I was Doing the assembly that the floor of the intake was LOWER than the head.. so the fuel that is puddling has a sizeable lip to overcome.. why I didn't stop myself I'm unsure.
Strike3 both rear plugs are loaded up with fuel I believe this is because the fuel is running the length of the intake over time to the rear cylinders air flows this way in my setup and they are also the lowest point the way the car is sitting....
So what can I do? Ideas?
I think I will have to pull the whole assembly off and redo the gaskets but I don't know how I am going to get them thick enough. This intake was used so I don't know if it was milled. Can you stack intake gaskets on an boosted application? I would think not maybe you race guys would know.
I think your screwed unless you can change the angle (not possible from what I remember) or spray it from a different place upstream, but your just about out of real estate and you still likely will have a puddling problem.
My 'cartoon' mind says jack that thing up 6" and let it stick out the hood.
My 'cartoon' mind says jack that thing up 6" and let it stick out the hood.
- Mar 2, 2015
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On my old set up I had to use 1/16th thick intake gaskets from Advance Auto. They were made by Felpro....can't remember the part number...but they showed up for an 89 mustang gt.
You could weld walls or ridges leading to the intake ports. That wouldn't solve a puddle issue.
You could port match the heads. I remember reading about wall wetting once.
no experience there...
The fuel scavenging events happen 180 degrees before the power/combustion stroke. 8 and 4 are also on the same coil circuit...8 being + and 4 being -...I think.
If the coil for 8 and 4 were misfiring would it cause blacker plugs ? Maybe, spark is weak.
Basically, I have no idea....but I can get you to think.
This makes it easier to visualize.... The opposite cylinder on the cap is either intake or power stroke. The thing is....due to the order the vacuum into a At ate would keep fuel from rolling to the back.
Uh
Batch fire = when 4 fuels that whole bank shoots....guess it could be pulling a little more fuel in....along with 8.
You could weld walls or ridges leading to the intake ports. That wouldn't solve a puddle issue.
You could port match the heads. I remember reading about wall wetting once.
The fuel scavenging events happen 180 degrees before the power/combustion stroke. 8 and 4 are also on the same coil circuit...8 being + and 4 being -...I think.
If the coil for 8 and 4 were misfiring would it cause blacker plugs ? Maybe, spark is weak.
Basically, I have no idea....but I can get you to think.
This makes it easier to visualize.... The opposite cylinder on the cap is either intake or power stroke. The thing is....due to the order the vacuum into a At ate would keep fuel from rolling to the back.
Uh
Batch fire = when 4 fuels that whole bank shoots....guess it could be pulling a little more fuel in....along with 8.
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1-6 3-5 7-4 2-8 are pairs for the coils.
I really think it has to do with the port wall. I'm not pulling the heads I will however hightack two gaskets together. What can go wrong?
Your thought on vacuum in the intake by cylinder has me thinking though. Once I have the blower off I can inspect the fitment again. It will only take a few mins to pull the blower I have the plenum off of it already.
I really think it has to do with the port wall. I'm not pulling the heads I will however hightack two gaskets together. What can go wrong?
Your thought on vacuum in the intake by cylinder has me thinking though. Once I have the blower off I can inspect the fitment again. It will only take a few mins to pull the blower I have the plenum off of it already.
Do not stick two gaskets together...it will most assuredly leak.
You have fuel distribution issues. For you to have wet gas "puddling" on a forced induction engine leaves me wondering How in the hell there is so much fuel going to the wrong places on a direct port engine? You have to deal with the simple fact that each injector has to feed its own individual cylinder. If you are spraying gas at some angle other than directly into the port where reversion is sucking it into another port, then you have a classic case of a "Mike do over" in front of you,..and the top end needs to come off and the injection angle has to be re-configured.
You have fuel distribution issues. For you to have wet gas "puddling" on a forced induction engine leaves me wondering How in the hell there is so much fuel going to the wrong places on a direct port engine? You have to deal with the simple fact that each injector has to feed its own individual cylinder. If you are spraying gas at some angle other than directly into the port where reversion is sucking it into another port, then you have a classic case of a "Mike do over" in front of you,..and the top end needs to come off and the injection angle has to be re-configured.
Yes Mike I agree.
Not sure if actual puddling is happening but with both rear cylinders loading up and the fact that I as a shade tree mechanic designed this deal I have to assume I did something wrong. I choose to try this path rather than guess at least I will get another look into the intake.
I have read on it and even some manufacturers glue gaskets together....
Not sure if actual puddling is happening but with both rear cylinders loading up and the fact that I as a shade tree mechanic designed this deal I have to assume I did something wrong. I choose to try this path rather than guess at least I will get another look into the intake.
I have read on it and even some manufacturers glue gaskets together....
Just to increase the thickness. I will first remove the intake then stack washers and test fit the manifold... when I find what thickness I need to get the port floors to line up I can order the gaskets. They make 1/16 1/8 3/16 gaskets for crazy prices.... or I can glue a couple stockers together..
Thick custom gaskets usually have larger ports than I need. (Flowtech)
So I know your coils are wasted spark, but are you still batch fueling or is it sequential? For some reason I seem to remember you're running the ms2 based pnp and not the ms3x?
That is correct I am batch fire, if I had the ability to run sequential and time the injector I could work around this issue I think.
1-6 3-5 7-4 2-8 are pairs for the coils.
I really think it has to do with the port wall. I'm not pulling the heads I will however hightack two gaskets together. What can go wrong?
Your thought on vacuum in the intake by cylinder has me thinking though. Once I have the blower off I can inspect the fitment again. It will only take a few mins to pull the blower I have the plenum off of it already.
If there was a problem with fuel getting over that port floor mismatch, I'd think you'd see it on all of the rear cylinders. On a normally aspirated engine using a carb, the 4 outside corners are always lean, typically with 7/8 being the worst offenders. That little intake runner you have between ports is my bet on why you're seeing this. The injectors are close enough for reversion to suck some gas over into an adjacent cylinder,..depending on the spray angle,..you're also spraying fuel over at the other port as well. ( I'd bet an EV-6 pressurized to 43 pounds would just soak a cylinder in a heartbeat,...imagine what happens when two of them are both playing in the same sandbox.)
Windsors don't take kindly to trying to raise the intake..it forces you to hog out the bolt holes closer to the inside of the boss. As you raise the intake, that bolt moves inward towards the center. I don't know if you said it already, but how much of a mismatch are you dealing with here? I'd pull a Bob Glidden, and raise the intake manifold floor before I'd try to lower the port floor in the head ( port floors are never really messed with,...low velocity area)
If it wasn't for the meth,..I'd contact my old buddy JB, and I'd use that to raise the floor in the intake instead.
The problem is,..the meth...( it's always the meth)..JB don't like it. And it'll fail when exposed to it. That's why I went on the mad search to find an epoxy that tolerated it when I built my intake on the orange black drag car.
Back in the day, before monster injectors, I had to use two 160 lb-ers per cylinder. It left the intake so hacked up, I had to make rails to mount the injectors in much like a fuel rail that woul go on top. And,.....it left no room to completely weld the stuff together.
So I had to glue it.
I found some stuff out there,..and I think it's more commonplace now than it was then,..but the stuff I used that was tolerant of the high manifold pressures ( 30+ psi), temp fluctuation ( hot to freezing cold in an instant) meth fuel compatible, and it " flowed " easily ( think thicker por-15) and it had a certain degree of flexibility.
I got it online from GE aerospace. The guy sold me a small batch for 50 bucks,...( told me to wear gloves because once it got on something and dried,..it wouldn't come off ) and whatever I did,...don't get it in my eyes.
It took about 6 hours to dry, but once it did....Sht was stuck.
i used a piece of .030 aluminum as a mixing board....once that was dry, all that was left was a really thin layer that was residue from the application.
You couldn't beat it off. I smacked the piece of aluminum from behind trying to shock the metal, and create a large outward dent from behind.
It still stuck.
Dude said that they used this junk to glue on the re-entry tiles on the space shuttle or some sht like that...
It was good enough for me.
Bottom line,..try something like this to fix the port floor mismatch instead of grinding on the heads, or spacing the intake up.
I still think it's gonna be injector spray/reversion that is the prob here.
Great tidbit of info there Mike I appreciate the idea. Now as far as reversion goes... how do I fix that.... injector angle is my bet..If there was a problem with fuel getting over that port floor mismatch, I'd think you'd see it on all of the rear cylinders. On a normally aspirated engine using a carb, the 4 outside corners are always lean, typically with 7/8 being the worst offenders. That little intake runner you have between ports is my bet on why you're seeing this. The injectors are close enough for reversion to suck some gas over into an adjacent cylinder,..depending on the spray angle,..you're also spraying fuel over at the other port as well. ( I'd bet an EV-6 pressurized to 43 pounds would just soak a cylinder in a heartbeat,...imagine what happens when two of them are both playing in the same sandbox.)
Windsors don't take kindly to trying to raise the intake..it forces you to hog out the bolt holes closer to the inside of the boss. As you raise the intake, that bolt moves inward towards the center. I don't know if you said it already, but how much of a mismatch are you dealing with here? I'd pull a Bob Glidden, and raise the intake manifold floor before I'd try to lower the port floor in the head ( port floors are never really messed with,...low velocity area)
If it wasn't for the meth,..I'd contact my old buddy JB, and I'd use that to raise the floor in the intake instead.
The problem is,..the meth...( it's always the meth)..JB don't like it. And it'll fail when exposed to it. That's why I went on the mad search to find an epoxy that tolerated it when I built my intake on the orange black drag car.
Back in the day, before monster injectors, I had to use two 160 lb-ers per cylinder. It left the intake so hacked up, I had to make rails to mount the injectors in much like a fuel rail that woul go on top. And,.....it left no room to completely weld the stuff together.
So I had to glue it.
I found some stuff out there,..and I think it's more commonplace now than it was then,..but the stuff I used that was tolerant of the high manifold pressures ( 30+ psi), temp fluctuation ( hot to freezing cold in an instant) meth fuel compatible, and it " flowed " easily ( think thicker por-15) and it had a certain degree of flexibility.
I got it online from GE aerospace. The guy sold me a small batch for 50 bucks,...( told me to wear gloves because once it got on something and dried,..it wouldn't come off ) and whatever I did,...don't get it in my eyes.
It took about 6 hours to dry, but once it did....Sht was stuck.
i used a piece of .030 aluminum as a mixing board....once that was dry, all that was left was a really thin layer that was residue from the application.
You couldn't beat it off. I smacked the piece of aluminum from behind trying to shock the metal, and create a large outward dent from behind.
It still stuck.
Dude said that they used this junk to glue on the re-entry tiles on the space shuttle or some sht like that...
It was good enough for me.
Bottom line,..try something like this to fix the port floor mismatch instead of grinding on the heads, or spacing the intake up.
I still think it's gonna be injector spray/reversion that is the prob here.
I could figure out what injectors fire together rather easily and stage them so that no two adjacent injectors fire together...
My injectors are well oversized for the output I want. I could easily get away with the 36lbers I have.
Maybe increasing the number of squirts will help. This way there is less fuel statically suspended in the port, half the fuel would be waiting for the valve to open instead of all of it.
I will try all of these but first I am pulling the blower to inspect the manifold alignment. I am also going to clean the injectors along with a backflush and spray pattern check. If they all don't look uniform I am sending them off to be cleaned and rebuilt.
Sparky714
Well-Known Member
DIY has an add on module for the MS2 that will add two more injector drivers so you can do semi-sequential. https://www.diyautotune.com/product/diypnp-upgrade-sequential-injection-kit/. Only 40 bucks and might be an easy fix for you.
i like that idea.Edit: so much so that I just ordered it. I will give up my two spare outputs pt6 and pt7 to run the extra two injector circuits. This will let me fire the injectors with the wasted spark firing order.. I can even time the injector to the valve event. (Given I can figure out what that is.....)
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Edit: so much so that I just ordered it. I will give up my two spare outputs pt6 and pt7 to run the extra two injector circuits. This will let me fire the injectors with the wasted spark firing order.. I can even time the injector to the valve event. (Given I can figure out what that is.....)
I was gonna suggest that too, only I was gonna suggest that you upgrade to MS3 ( but way more money) full control of the injector firing sequence.
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I got home and about 30mins later I had the blower ripped off..
this is how much of a lip I have in the intake... This is a standard .060thick intake gasket. I think the .125 gaskets would match the port floors nicely.
Now when I removed the fuel injectors and looked down the bung at the angle it is welded what do you suppose I saw??
If you guessed cylinder head runner you win! Only a very small portion of the spray pattern would make it out into the manifold....
Now when I removed the fuel injectors and looked down the bung at the angle it is welded what do you suppose I saw??
If you guessed cylinder head runner you win! Only a very small portion of the spray pattern would make it out into the manifold....