LS or HEMI motor in an 05+...any conversion parts out there???

Discussion in '2005 - 2009 Specific Tech' started by v8only, Jan 1, 2009.

  1. This is my point exactly. I picked up 130hp, give or take, from merely hollowing my cats, adding a cam and replacing my airlid. Total cost, $1020, and you can hang with blown 4.6 2v's HP wise. Displacement? It's a valid argument. But why doesn't Ford put the 5.4 N/A in a Mustang? I would assume it's because of fuel economy reasons. We all know that mod for mod in the N/A world the LS1 responds hands down better. Why is it people are so quick to pull the displacement issue?

    Chew on this. If increasing the displacement on the 4.6 to 5.4 does so much, why is the new Chevy Silverado's 5.3 rated at 315hp and the Ford is 320 in the Flex Fuel and 310 in the std. model? The 4.63v is rated at 292hp. Not much of an improvement to me. These are both '09 MY vehicles, apples to apples. More eye catching, the jump from 4.6 to 5.4 netted 18hp. The answer is simple. The 4.6/5.4's are limited by head design. There is just too much real estate taken up by the OHC technology to create a free flowing head, hence the 2,3 and 4v versions. This is why charging a modular is a Must for any kind of power. Now, i'm well aware that there are extremely good examples out there to prove me wrong, but I don't think you'll find a Cam(s), CAI, catless N/A 4.6 or 5.4 producing 480HP.

    Put cams, hollow cats and CAI on a Mustang, you might get 50hp fly. You seem to be well educated on the LS1, so you should also know that the reason the gain is so big with a cam is that they have such a small cam factory they don't even have an EGR valve ('01-'02), this could also attribute to the 25+MPG, even with the larger displacement. Add a cam to the charged LS1 and I think the numbers would be very, very different. I was pounding out a [email protected] getting 28MPG going to the track, and could bury the 155 MPH speedo with the 2.73's, all with only a Lid, Tune, no cats and cutout.

    I guess what i'm trying to convey is, I want to see an example of a Mustang, running [email protected] or better, at a corrected altitude of 1500ft. Only allowable mods are CAI, Gutted Cats, a computer tune and cutout lid. It has to be an Auto and have 2.73's.

    This is the basis of my argument and holds true to the OP's topic. And, is the whole reason I switched to the dark side, cheaper, faster N/A HP.
  2. Again, in all seriousness, thanks for continuing a fair and honest discussion. As the debate has continued, you've stated a very strong case. Until now I wasn't aware of the Torq Tech system, and they do produce some very good numbers.

  3. You need to understand though, that the same exact mods, don't always work for different cars. I mean.....cutout lid.....a Mustang doesn't even have a lid to cut out?!?

    That being said, there are guys on here that have dipped into the high-12's with the 3V cars with little more than a tune, O/R mid pipe, intake, pulleys and some gears. All while still knocking down mid/high 20's.

    Are you waiting for me to say that the LS1 makes more power in N/A trim or something? I don't think I ever denied that. What I'm saying is, that its the displacement difference that's responsible for it. Not that an LS1 is such a superior design. As far as the Modular is concerned, with such a high volumetric efficiency rating (displacement vs. airflow potential), Mod motors are always going to be more responsive to forced induction than N/A guys with them go with what works. Are they a little more expensive initially than a few basic bolt ons and home made mods from the GM crowd, sure.....but their potential for return after the fact is far greater when all is said and done. You just can't compare N/A vs. Blown in this case. Hell, it took a 427cid of the latest Z06 to match the output of what would normally be nothing more than a boosted, pullied 4.6L with basic bolt ons. Sure, the 4.6L often requires forged bottom end components to reach their potential, but that's a fault of the designers choosing to go with cheaper bottom end components to keep the bean counters happy, not the design itself.

    You seemed eager to use my car as an example but when you take into account I too run high-12's at almost the same trap speed with about 35-lessrwhp and another 400-500lb worth of vehicle can see the Positive Displacement blown efforts go a little further than just making similar "peek" horsepower numbers to compare one and other to. :shrug:

    And the fact that I like to wear make-up on a regular basis doesn't hurt either, right? ;)
    I have no reason to be an ass about anything. I can respect an alternative side of an conversation, just as you've been respecting mine. I see no reason either of us would need to get worked up over anything. Its just an internet Forum, after all. :)
  4. They did!!!! It was called the 2000 Cobra R!!!

    The 4v 5.4L made 385 HP as everyone knows. Albeit they only made a limited number it shows the 'capability' of the 5.4L tuned for a MUSTANG and not a TRUCK. And I'll agree that LS1's are very responsive to the "little" mods. But it becomes a game of "ifs" when you throw in forced induction. A lot of my friends still run LS1's so I get crap all the time. And I know a fair share about them myself. What I want to know is again your starting HP numbers. I've seen late LS1's come in around 270ish rwhp stock with the occassional freak up to 300, which I have seen.

    It would be easier to compare rwhp as that is more relavent to track numbers. But that's just me. :shrug: If your car can boast that HP number but can't hang where it should on the track then you need some gears and tires! :nice:

    I love these debates and will be waiting for a response. I agree that N/A we've got troubles, but charged, you've got troubles. Dollar for dollar of course.

    Furthermore just to add my support behind what's already been said by gearbanger, the cost of the total swap to an LSx far exceeds any built bottom end and charger. :)
  5. On another question, I thought the 224r cam was a rather mild, street friendly cam. Can't believe you're hitting that high HP number corrected......hmmm. LS1's are good for around 400rwhp with this cam AND LS6 heads.

    Texas Speed 224R Camshaft

    Texas speed says it's good for 30-35 rwhp if this is what you got.

    Further furthermore,
    SLP Lid good for up to 10 rwhp
    Gutted cats 5-6hp
    Advertised gain on cam is 35rwhp
    that's barely 50rwhp you've added yet you have 380. About 100-110 more hp than stock. What system did you use for you're tune?
  6. We use HP Tuners. My tune was created using literally hours of track logging. It's basically perfectely setup for my setup. As far as the HP goes, most LS1 guys know that the 305 fly hp is bull, it's 345-350 range stock, and that's rated with the stock programming. Taking off Torque Management so you're not pulling timing between shifts does wonders, as does leaning these fat pigs out and upping the timing. I gained about .4 and an estimated 40 hp from the tune alone. Also, Texas speed quoted those HP numbers with longtubes, which I do not have.

    Also, you're right about the factory freak point. I put down 290RWHP through an auto with only a cutout lid, but, check my MySpace pics. You see the Red T/A and the Orange SS? Both ran the same numbers I did, granted with the same mods. The timeslip beside me is actually the T/A's time, he's the [email protected]

    Add these up to your listed mod/hp list and you're about 20hp diff.

    Track times? Got those. This is a really funny story. I ran [email protected] with only a Tune, Lid, Gutted cats and cutout, granted that was the world's best D/A and I haven't ran it since. I installed the cam, re-tuned and ran [email protected]110.5 at a corrected D/A of 3500 ft vs. the 1500 ft day I ran 12.9. The Cam hurt my 1/8th mile quite a bit without having the supporting mods.

    And, as you very well stated, I need a stall and gears, all of which I have coming for this race season. I'm still running 2.73's, factory stall, manifolds, and nothing more than a 245 street tire. I would venture to guess i'll be running low 12's traction permitting. I plan on going with a 4K YankSS 'verter.

    Blown vs. N/A, i'd call that fair. I'm not disputing what Gearbanger had argued, in fact he's made some rather good points. But, hear my side of the story, i've been respectful to yours....

    I had an N/A Mustang, it was quite frankly disappointing. Granted it was an Auto, I did quite a bit to it an still got lackluster performance. So, enter my dilemma. Spend 4K for a blower, another $900 for a converter, slicks, yadda yadda or switch it up a little. The car was paid off and easy to sell, as you can tell by the pics it was a looker after we got done with it.

    Sold the stang for 5K, bought the Camaro for 9K, 4K difference, or the price of a blower setup. Granted, I also got a 4 year newer car in the process that not only got better MPG, it has T-Tops, my fav.

    Ran 12.9's with nothing for mods, and got 28 MPG highway, 21 in town.

    So, Here's the best I can offer for real word examples. Here are some Vids of our track with a couple of people I hang with at the strip.

    Our Lane:

    2000 z28 75k miles
    Performabuilt lvl2 trans
    Yank PT4000
    3.73 gears
    ls6 intake (stock intake found on '01 to '02's)
    MTI lid
    BLOWmaster catback (with a piece of a cat in it I believe) - He's still running Cats, NOT HOLLOWED.
    Nitto radials 275/40/17
    5spk silver SS wheels
    FULL WEIGHT full options car, t-top, leather w/ power, cd changer, spare+jack
    Completely untuned except for gearing change

    R/T - .080
    60' - 1.815
    330 - 5.248
    1/8 - 8.163
    MPH - 83.99
    1000 - 10.68
    1/4 - 12.813
    MPH - 105.29

    Opposing Lane:

    750rwhp procharged 408. Quite a Nasty example of a charged LS based. I don't know a lot about this car, other than it's charged and drives to our track to race. if you follow some links on the LS1 tech thread you'll find what all it has. I'm sure it's got a bit done, but at 750 RWHP who wouldn't?

    [email protected]

    Also in the Thread Link below, a magnacharged 5.3L Pickup. Races with us regular. [email protected] Over 4K race weight.

    All here:
    First passes in the new car - SRCA in KS - LS1TECH

    One last example.

    Here is a truck I personally helped build. It's an '86 GMC shortbox, 2wd. Engine is a 5.3L with a mild cam, TH350 Trans, 4.10's and 3800 stall. Also has our HP Tuners custom Tune.

    [email protected] MPH. 4100LB race weight

    YouTube - jays vette and truck

    also in this vid, Jay's STOCK C6 Vette. [email protected] hp, 3200 lbs race weight. [email protected]

    This vid also has a highly modified GT500 vs the 'Vette. The 500 has an aftermarket charger, pully, intercooler, tune and CAI. As you can see the 500 peeled, but couldn't run the 'vette down. I don't care what you say, if you got MPH on someone, you can run them down. The 'Vette kept pullin' away....

    Here's the truck before the cam:

    Stock 5.3L, 4.10's, stall, Tune, M/T ET streets:

    YouTube - Jay Sammy Playday race 08

    Here is where i'm going to call B/S on the displacement mod. This truck has, in this vid, a STOCK 5.3L with merely a tune and exhaust. The 'verter and trans are what makes it mean 1/4, but look at the MPH, that tells HP. Also, look at the vid of the stock '05 GT 5spd we raced, the truck has it in MPH. Interesting, considering the truck weighs almost 400 lbs more.

    YouTube - 05gtvscamaro

    The 1st race is very impressive. That's an '03 Cobra with a CAI only. The truck, having a 4100lb race weight and N/A 5.3L sure gave the cobra a run. That very same Cobra came back 2 months later with a pulley, exhaust, full boltons, tune, slicks and a damn good driver mod. The best he got was [email protected] And yes, he did have a dyno sheet. How's 430 RWHP grab ya?

    Gearbanger is right. It's just an internet forum. I too am into real world results. It all looks good on paper and in magazines, but at the track sometimes not what the numbers say it should be.

    So let's see some of your guy's vids.
  7. I really don't have the motivation right now to actually compose a reply to that but ... It sounds like a pretty bad driver to only be able to muster a 12.4 sec 1/4 mile out of a lightly modded GT500 ...
  8. I ran a best of 13-flat (13.01 to be exact) that particular day, but if you'll notice in the video, my 4R70W was jumping all over the place because of a bad modulator valve. I've since fixed the problem and also regained control of my timing, which resulted me now running it into the high-12's at about 108-109mph. It should do better still if I ever decide to upgrade to a higher stall converter. Again, keep in mind with me in the car its tipping the scales at around 4,200lbs. Should I ever decided to pull the power train out and transplant it into an SN95, it should move quite a bit quicker.

    Running down the track.....

    View attachment 279346

    On the Dyno.....

    View attachment 279348

    I agree. Guys are running 12.4-12.5's in stock GT 500's, never mind ones with an aftermarket blower, pully swap, intercooler upgrade, tune and CAI. Hell...stock Eaton M122 cars are running mid-11's up around 120mph with those mods. The guy either really, really sucks and driving, or it didn't have nearly the amount of mods you think it did.

    For example...bone stock right down to the tires....300-miles on the odometer. Ran [email protected] on this pass, then later that day ran a best of [email protected]

    You seem to be trying to pick the best of the best GM's and the worst of the worst Fords in order to prove your points here. :shrug:
  9. He said it was an 03 cobra not a gt500. The numbers still sound off though.
  10. Normally aspirated engines are normally aspirated engines. PERIOD.

    Hard core Ford fan my rear. Give it time and you will have something to work with, and the damn thing will FIT.

    In all seriousness, has anyone seen any conversion parts out there yet? HELL NO.
  11. I just don't see your point here.

    are you referring to the C6 vs GT500 video? If so, the 500 is Ford's fastest production car year vs. year. You can't compare the GT anymore, it's out of production, not to mention that's a 200K car vs 60k cars.

    Maybe we should compare the C6 Z06 if you want to keep it apples to apples. 505 hp vs. 500, 3100lbs race weight vs. 4000lbs. The outcome is obvious there, granted the C6 has a massive displacement advantage, but it's the package deal that counts in this argument, not the HP/Cube.

    Yes, the GT500 in my vid had a horrid driver, this I know. I know him personally, and yes it indeed does have quite a list of aftermarket parts. There is soon to be a rematch with those two cars when the track opens here in March. The C6 will have full exhaust, tune and air intake mod. Vs. Slicks and possible gearing for the GT500.

    Setup is everything in the 1/4 mile. I'm the prime example. Stay tuned for times with the 4K 'verter and gears.

    Gearbanger, I'm well aware that you too have run similar MPH to myself. My question to you is, if you had 2.73's and a stock 1800 stall, could you pull off a 13.1 still? I think not. Even though I weigh 400lbs less, I still cut 2.1 60' all day. I'd say the LS1 might have a little low end grunt.
  12. So why didn't the OP ever consider doing a Ford 460, etc swap? :shrug:
  13. I was actually making reference to this post here.....

    My point wasn't that you chose a GT500 vs. Vette, or that you used a Cobra in your example either....but the fact remains you picked the slowest examples of each to do it. As evident in the video I posted above, that bone stock GT500's are capable of what the one in your video was running with apparently another 100+hp. And whatever...that's fine, bad runs happen, but you're talking as if that's the norm for them? If that one ran so slow with that many mods, then they all must, right? :rolleyes:

    Same goes for the '03 Cobra. With pulley, exhaust, full bolt-ons, tune and slicks 99% of the Cobra's out there are running mid/high-11's...not mid-12's. And I question your statement of a "damn good driver mod" if with 440rwhp he's barely able to run quicker than stock.

    ...and again, you voice it like its all they're good for? I mean....I've seen a Z06 run a mid-13 at the strip before too and numerous F-Bodies and Corvettes run high-13's. Should I consider that the norm for them and regurgitate it as gospel to anyone who will listen as well? :shrug:

    My car still had 3.27 gears in it when I ran those times. I didn't change the rear end ratio until later that summer. Also, when you consider my car has 27" tall tires, its probably pretty close to your 2.73 rear end ratio after all is said and done. The converter is very much on the mild side. It’s nothing more than a beefed up Mercury Marauder piece. It hasn't performed the way I wanted it to and I feel I need a much "looser" converter for my application. I stuck with it because after the work that was done to its now quite stout and I doubt the stocker would have held up to 465lb/ft of torque.
  14. I figured it was a laptop order. I'm familiar with LS1Edit, as in I have looked at it. :D Best way to do it I guess but with such a minimal number of internal engine mods that you have, I wouldn't think you could get much out of it. :shrug:

    As you very well know, the 96-98 4.6 2v's were the worst year for modulars in mustangs. Again, I think you are taking the worst of the stang to the best of the camaro. I understand this is your experience, but you did have the worst year 2v mod motor. Granted, I had a 98 vert GT, so I sucked too. :rlaugh: . They had the lowest HP rating and the lesser performing non-pi heads. I don't think you can fair chance compare a 2000 LS1 to the non-pi motor. There was quite a change after 99 with pi heads, just like in 98 with the LT to LS switch.

    I guess MPG and T-Tops are a personal preference, as is the look of the car; and while I like straight line performance, the 'maro lacks in handling and drivability. But again, that's my opinion, and that's my personal experiences. No sense in starting another war but that's another thread. :D

    We don't video.
  15. Justin, I really appreciate that you can respect my experiences with such an honest reply. Thanks!

    A little clarification.

    Bone stock my '96 ran [email protected] It was an auto car with 3.08's.

    I had 2 different engine setups installed in my car. The 1st was a PI headswaped '96 shortblock with PI intake and PI cams. This proved to be the best setup due to the compression and the more agressive low end of the stock PI cams. With 3.73's, SCT Tune and full exhaust, I went [email protected]

    I then bought a set of Comp 262-AH13 cams. These cams were for the PI cars and sported the .550 lift. Due to the close PTV clearances with the headswap alone, I had to change my intake valves to get the cams to clear. Even then, I had to run them 6 deg. retarded to get the proper PTV clearance.

    This setup actually slowed me down, [email protected] was it's best.

    The next setup I tried was a full PI motor. I figured maybe getting the cams more to straight up degreed would re-gain some of the low end back. I acquired a free PI longblock with low miles, installed and degreed my cams and gave it a shot.

    [email protected]

    So the strongest setup was the PI converted shortblock due to the compression, with the stock PI cams that had much better low end power. I know I needed a converter, but for what? High 13's at best?

    After spending $400.00 on cams and getting nowhere, in addition to using two different engine setups, and getting beat on by LS1's all day long and then some, I did what I did. People here on stangnet used to say there was something wrong with my setup, how a stock PI Mustang could run that no problem. Till some of the smart ones here decided to look at my D/A. I was killing PI 5-spds all day with my auto, so I knew my setup was running o.k. As you can tell, i'm a frequent at the track here, in fact I race every race. Lots of PI cars run out here, and all were high 14's stock. Also, in the Alan-Sammy Playday race, the last race in the vid, is me vs. my friends '97 GT. NPI with exhaust and tune. 15's all day.

    I thought of every option before getting rid of my stang. From a 4v swap to a complete '03 cobra drivetrain swap. Each swap option had major cost drawbacks, in addition to the labor side of it.

    As you can tell, I have a lot of friends that have LS1's. I'd watch them dance in the bottom 13's all day long with a Tune, lid and gutted cats/headers, or like I've stated before, about $400 or so in mods. So I made the switch. Bought my '00 for $9100. Took it to the track with only a cutout installed, ran [email protected], [email protected] and [email protected] Also, that very same night, got to run a full bolt-on '97 Cobra 5-spd. He ran [email protected] to my [email protected] It was damn close! And his car did have the customer satisfaction head upgrade done. (Ford had a recall on this issue).

    Went back next month with a Tune, Lid, gutted cats, Cutout and ran [email protected] D/A was within 300ft. I couldn't believe it either. But, a tune on an LS1 fbody is worth it's weight in gold given GM cuts the power back a buttload during shifts.

    Next T&T, in quite possibly the best air we've had in years, ran [email protected] Although I had installed an '02 LS1 (better rod bolts, stock ls6 intake, only upgraded because I wanted the stronger motor for the future upgrades I was about to do.). Amazing, I thought. 12's with barely ANY mods, and still running stock manifolds with 2.73 gears and doing it all on 245/50R16's with no traction problems. Heck, I even cut a 1.9 60' with the stock cam.

    So there's my story from start to finish. I respect anything that's fast. Be it a Cougar (Gearbanger) or a damn Honda. I think the reason I've been so hostile about all this is because I have a deep, engrained hatred for a motor that, in my experiences, can't perform N/A. Again, these are my opinions, take them with a grain of salt. Funny thing is, I work as a Ford Technician. I've worked on GT500's, a Ford GT and Mustang's all day, so I'm well aware of what they can do. I love Ford, and have a Ford pickup and won't get rid of it. A lot of what Ford is doing right now is great. The new EcoBoost engines are going to be a a real winner.

    I only hope they get the 5.0 back out (modular) or get crackin' on that new BOSS engine they were talking about so long ago.
  16. Do you still have a Mustang?
  17. She was defintely a looker tho.

  18. No, I do not.

    The main reason I still hang out over here on Stangnet is because I provide some helpful information at times to people in need, Being a dealership technician.
  19. Like recommending an LS1 drop. :D
  20. Lol.

    Not exactly the message I was trying to convey, if you do a search on my posts, you'll see not all my recommendations involve LS1 drops. :nice:

    I know more about Ford's than I do GM's. Working on them for 10hrs/day you see a lot of things and can give some damn good repair info on what works and what doesn't.