Road course suspension upgrades?

[streetstang67]

I want to race on a track so bad...and I'm not gonna have the money to build me a real good car for that anytime soon (such as an older porshe, corvette, or even an open wheel car of some sort). So I want to make my mustang track worthy to go out and run with those kind of cars. I've already done the shelby drop and 1" front sway bar. I also have sort of an "aggresive" alignment for handling (slightly less camber). I plan on getting some sort of performance shocks and mabye eventually a rear sway bar. It would be nice to match the handling of a new sports car (cobra, trans am, bmw?). What do you suggest?
Remember, although I really want it to be track worthy, its still a primary street car, probably only taken to the course a couple times a year (hopefully). Thanks

 

[HistoricMustang]

Been doing the road race thing for years and the early model Mustangs are fun to drive at speed. Here are a few simple rules:

Get the car low. Mine is down about 3" front and rear.

Do not use a rear sway bar. You drive these things with the rear end so keep it "loose" (it wants to come around on you).

At the track use bias ply tires. I use Hoosier Street TD's. This will allow you to drift the car better and you can tune the suspension with air pressure.

You are going to need a good radiator to keep the temp down. Mine is a Howe Aluminum.

Upgrade to an 1 1/8" sway bar up front.

Get the weight out of the car.

The granada front spindle swap is a great "budget" deal and will help you get the thing stopped.

Upgrade your motor to last. Forget trying to get every last horsepower out of the motor. It is no fun sitting in the pits while your pals go around and around.

Last. You will make some great friends at the track and your social time will be almost as much fun as your track time.

Specific Questions?

HistoricMustang
www.historicmustang.com

 

[John Z]

I want to race on a track so bad...and I'm not gonna have the money to build me a real good car for that anytime soon (such as an older porshe, corvette, or even an open wheel car of some sort). So I want to make my mustang track worthy to go out and run with those kind of cars. I've already done the shelby drop and 1" front sway bar. I also have sort of an "aggresive" alignment for handling (slightly less camber). I plan on getting some sort of performance shocks and mabye eventually a rear sway bar. It would be nice to match the handling of a new sports car (cobra, trans am, bmw?). What do you suggest?
Remember, although I really want it to be track worthy, its still a primary street car, probably only taken to the course a couple times a year (hopefully). Thanks

Several interesting things in this post
1. Build me a really good car APPARENTLY THIS IS NOT A MUSTANG ???
2. Go out and run with these cars - SO YOU ARE EXPECTING TO TAKE SOMETHING THAT IS "NOT A REALLY GOOD CAR" AND "RUN WITH THE REALLY GOOD CARS"?
3. Nice to match the handling of a new sprots car - DO YOU REALLY THINK THIS CAN BE DONE WITH 40 YEAR OLD TECHNOLOGY AND A CHANGE OF THE SWAY BAR AND SHOCKS?
4. It is still a primary street car. WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? Soft ride and reliable and good gas mileage?

It is great that you want to take the racing to the track and not on the street, but you need to balance expectations with budget. You can make minor improvements with a tight budget and have a lot of fun at the track. Just don't bet your pink slip trying to beat any of those "really good cars".

 

[streetstang67]

When you say they are fun to run at high speed...my car has a c-4 with 3.55s making the current top speed about 100mph. After I get a cam, the top speed may rise to 115mph, but thats still not impressive. I do still have the 2.79 rear, would you suggest changing back to that for better top speed? or should I leave the 3.55s in for better acceleration coming out of the corners?

The shelby drop did lower the car noticably up front; after the drop I noticed that the tires will rub the fender with the wheels turned if I hit any obstacle. Therefore I can't really lower it anymore without losing streetability. Any suggestions for that?

How much of a difference will the bias ply tires make? This isn't a full out track car, so I need some tires that will do well on the street as well.

I plan on getting a good electric fan to cool better, although I dont currently have a problem with overheating.

I already have front disc brakes

How can I upgrade my engine to make it last? What do you mean by that?

Thanks for your help

 

[Red Barchetta]

Best thing to do is go to the track and see what the other guys with early Mustangs are running. Talk to the owners of the cars and ask them what they've done. Just remember, not everything others do will work the same on your car. However, there are some universal things to do, such as the Shelby drop, removing any excess weight, sub frame connectors, MonteCarlo bar, Export brace etc. Like HistoricMustang said, your engine should be your last priority.

You need to make the car safe first. That may include strengthening your suspension components, making sure there aren't any worn parts as wells as making sure there are no fluid leaks.

Just because you have disk brakes doesn't mean you're set to go. Factory disk brakes are not meant to take the abuse of track events. Last thing you want to find out is after your 8th lap that you've cooked your pads at the end of that 100+mph straight.

Also, find out from the sanctioning body at the track event what safety equipment is required.

Bottom line is, how fast do you want to go? In other words, how much can you afford to spend? There are a few options out there for improving your suspension. GlobalWest, TCP, CobraAutomotive all have things to help you out.

Last thing, don't expect your car to handle like a modern car. You can make a Mustang handle very well, however you will sacrifice some ride quality. Modern cars are at an advantage with modern technology. But then again, with enough money, anything is possible.

 

[HistoricMustang]

Street, I run 3.89 rear gears and a five speed. With a stock bottom end, aluminum heads, intake and 650 carb using 10.5 to 1 and weight down to 2650 pounds, you will be good for 140 MPH.

Yes, these things can be made to handle and perform using 45 year old basics. And they are a lot of fun.

Springs, I use 750# up front and 5 leaf rears at most tracks.

Any Questions?

HistoricMustang
www.historicmustang.com

 

[Route666]

Have you got TCP coil-overs HistoricMustang? Also, does not using a rear sway bar give you traction or take it away? I thought that having a sway bar would help with powersliding?

 

[BAD67FUN]

This guy sounds like a perfect canidate for SCCA. Go find their website and it will all become clear. As far as car mods.... everybody has opinions. Just keep safety as your number one priority and tweak everything. That's half the fun.

 

[slapper]

Street, I run 3.89 rear gears and a five speed. With a stock bottom end, aluminum heads, intake and 650 carb using 10.5 to 1 and weight down to 2650 pounds, you will be good for 140 MPH.
Yes, these things can be made to handle and perform using 45 year old basics. And they are a lot of fun.
Springs, I use 750# up front and 5 leaf rears at most tracks.
Any Questions?
HistoricMustang
www.historicmustang.com

Historic Mustang, is your rear suspension on leaf springs, and if so have you found the need for a panhard bar?
Curious, thanks.
P.S.-- NICE CAR.

 

[HistoricMustang]

Guys, here is what works for "my" style of driving. No rear sway bar and no panhard bar.

The early models push really bad (the front does not want to turn) so I need the rear of mine loose (the rear wants to come around) to make the thing turn.

People that read the mags will argue this up and down but keep in mind the mags are trying to sell you something. I am not!

I also use a bias ply tire as they drift better than radials and I can do a little tuning with air pressure.

Rear of my ride has 5 leaf springs, KYB shocks, 9" (a good 8" will work fine) and it is lowered 3" using reverse eye and a 1" lowering block that I made and a wedge to get the pinion angle correct.

What makes these things so fun to drive is that you set them up to have "rear steer" using the above stuff, plus it is "cheap". Forget spending all that money on expensive rear ends and brakes and have fun with your ride on a budget.

Heck, I was fourth in points and the top ranking early model in the entire country with NASA - American Iron - AIX in 2003 so I must be doing something right.

Have fun with the old cars.

HistoricMustang
www.historicmustang.com

 

[ARTTII]

Historic- Maybe I missed this (or maybe its a dumb question!) what type of carrier do you run, open, t-lock, posi? thanks

 

[HistoricMustang]

I use a Detroit Locker. In talking with other road racers most of the carriers that have some "give" work for road racing (and the street). We all feel that you need to stay away from the "spool" type rear ends that lock everything together. Use those for the drag strip.

The best thing for road racing..............a street clutch. I use a Hayes "long style". This puts a little "give and take" in the drive line. The mags tell you to spend this and spend that but too much clutch will start breaking stuff.

HistoricMustang
www.historicmustang.com

 

[Red Barchetta]

...What makes these things so fun to drive is that you set them up to have "rear steer" using the above stuff, plus it is "cheap". Forget spending all that money on expensive rear ends and brakes and have fun with your ride on a budget.www.historicmustang.com

Couple things Henry.

While "rear steer" may be the fun way to drive, and may even be the fastest way around the track, telling someone who's never been to an HPDE or OT event to set up their car loose is probably the worse advice I've ever heard. You want him to enjoy his time on the track, not to loop it in turn 1. Everyone agrees that a car that pushes or understeers is the safe way to start out. Only after you have several events under your belt should you start going to a loose setup, that is if your driving style warrants such a setup.

Second, telling him not to spend money on brakes is also borderline negligence. His '67 doesn't weigh 2650 lbs. Realistically, it's more like 3000 lbs. Factory brakes will not haul his car down from 140 mph, let alone 100 mph time after time. I'm curious, what are you using for brakes? I would be very surprised if you're using factory Mustang brakes.

...Heck, I was fourth in points and the top ranking early model in the entire country with NASA - American Iron - AIX in 2003 so I must be doing something right.

Not to bust your chops, but at least put this into context. How many early models in AIX? 3? 4? I don't know if you could count TCP as they only participated in a couple of events. However, I heard they may do more for '04. I'm not trying to take anything away from you Henry, I just want things in context. You did finish 4th in points. But you also ran more races than everyone who finished behind you in the NASA-VA series.

I envy you that you're able to make as many events as you did, and I appluad you for doing what a lot of us out there want to do. But give people full disclosure so they can see where you're coming from. To be competitive in AI/X, at least on the west coast, your car better be really friggin' fast. TCP's car is. It's also anything but cheap.

 

[Psydwaze]

"Racing" takes a dedicated track car and lots of money. Maybe you were referring to "open tracking", which can be done with great success on a limited budget and a part time street car. I would suggest going to an open track event to do a bit of research to see the level of driving, modifications and safety required for whichever driving association you choose. NASA's HPDE is a great place to start getting a feel for your car and you can take just about anything out on the track. Mustang, Civic, Beetle, just about anything thats not dripping oil.

Henry's setup works very well for vintage racing within the confines of the limited modifications they can perform. However this will be very different from what you may be used to driving and as stated will want to swap ends when driving to its limits.

Gear and suspension set up recommendations have a lot to do with driving level/style and what tracks you will be running on a regular basis. I wouldn't be too concerned with top speed at this point. Safety and reliability should be the primary concerns.

If you can lock up your tires and can keep your pads and fluid from over-heating, a larger set of brakes isn't going to help you stop any faster. The main purpose of large and expensive brakes is heat dissipation (sp?) to prevent fading over an extended period of time. Air ducts, fresh fluid and a set of pads that you can swap in specifically for the track will help you get more performance from any set of disc brakes.

If you're going to be using the car on the street also, stay away from 750lb springs. Henry runs pretty fast and can justify the need for a higher spring rate but a 620lb or lower spring with an upgraded stabilizer bar would be a better compromise for a street/track car.

An updated set of strut rods using a rod end and steel mount is a good bang for your buck upgrade. Getting rid of the bushings at the strut rod mount will make a noticable difference in braking stability.

 

[Red Barchetta]

...If you can lock up your tires and can keep your pads and fluid from over-heating, a larger set of brakes isn't going to help you stop any faster...

Come on Lino, I expect better tech than that from you. Being able to lock up your brakes is not a sign that your brakes are adequate. From Baer's site:

I can already lock my brakes (or engage the ABS), so what can a better brake system do for me?
Although virtually any brake system can be spiked into locking a rotor or activating the ABS, the true measure of a performance brake system is how close it allows you to come to the point just shy of locking. This is affected by a number of elements. Some of the most important are caliper stability and leverage affect on the rotor, which increases with rotor diameter. In simple terms, the more stable a caliper and the more evenly it can apply the pads to the rotor surface, the faster your car will stop.

For normal street driving, the factory disk brakes are fine. But if you're going to be flogging it at the track (and no one just cruises around on a track) you're going to want to look into better brakes.

There are a couple of members here who use their cars on the street as well as the track. Talk to Billgear and LanceMach. I don't know if gp001 open tracks his car, but he does like to flog it (the car that is) like the best of them and has done some really nice modifications to his '66.

 

[351pacecar]

I could come up with indisputable facts as to why it is mandatory to race wearing a chicken costume if I felt like it.

Start my ignoring all information about the necesessity of products from the sites selling said products. You wouldn't believe how close they will come to outright lying to you to sell you something.
Or maybe you would.

Anyways on the issue of brakes, start with stock discs (granada or otherwise) and go from there as necessary. I can't vouch for manual disc vs power, but I think iam going to try that on mine to see how much the effort is when I stick the disc brakes on later.

 

[BAD67FUN]

Hello people.... My wife is giving me the green light on converting all four corners over to disc this spring. I've been thumbing thru my Baer catalog for about six months now. I'm going to go with the 13" front and 12" rear kits. I currently have manual brakes and have intentions of putting a power booster into the mix. Do I really need to do this? I know some people say that manual brakes are a beyatch to haul down from high speed. But I doubt they're cars were shad with the type of braking power my Baers will have. What do you guys think? Also, if I do go with the power... is it a pretty straight forward job?

 

[Edbert]

Hello people.... My wife is giving me the green light on converting all four corners over to disc this spring. I've been thumbing thru my Baer catalog for about six months now. I'm going to go with the 13" front and 12" rear kits.

What is the part number for 13 inch fronts that fit on stock spindles? I have looked at Baer and Wilwood but only found SSBC 13s that fit on stock spindles.

 

[BAD67FUN]

I believe it's 1261076 for the front..... TRACK system. But now after looking closer it says that the TRACK system will require 70-73 spindles that they sell for $440!!! Dang. But they do sell a system called the SPORT that will work with the OEM spindles on my 67. It will then be a 12" rotor. Still plenty of brake and now I guess it would match the rotor in the rear. I will talk to them verbally to verify all of this when I order in a month or so. Thanks for the catch!! I'm leaning towards Baer simply for their racing background and reputation. Not sure if you get that from SSBC. No slam intended.

 

[Psydwaze]

Come on Lino, I expect better tech than that from you. ... For normal street driving, the factory disk brakes are fine. But if you're going to be flogging it at the track (and no one just cruises around on a track) you're going to want to look into better brakes.

Agreed, but I have no idea of his intentions or level of driving. The entry level of HPDE can really resemble a parade lap at times so I don't think a $2,500 set of brakes is really going to give him an edge over the competition. We do not know how far into the performance realm he wants to put his "street" car. So yes bigger, better built brakes are preferred for performance but from the first post I didn't get the impression that he is looking to squeeze out every last bit of performance from the vehicle. A stock setup and what it has to offer may be just fine for what he's doing. Depending on how limited the budget, funds may need to be more evenly spread across the vehicle.