10 sec build, help needed.

[Blown95Cobra]

I'm building a LX hatch. I'm looking for a low 10 second street car. I would like to avoid the use of power adders to acheive this. I'm going to go with a 351w based engine and a C4. I've got a few questions:

Is the FRPP 392 shortblock worth it or should I spend the extra cash for a level 20 DSS 408?
What heads/cam/intake/carb would be a winning combo? (roller cam preferred)
11.5:1 safe for 93 octane?
What company should I go with for a trans?

If you guys think of anything I may have missed lmk

Thanks,
Frankie

 

[Daggar]

I wouldn't use either one of those builds but that's just me.

If you're planning to get a reliable 10 seconds out of high compression normally aspirated motor then you must also be planning for a decent rev range. Sure it can be done, but at what cost? Pston deflection, main bearing walk, the list goes on....

Suggestions:

Mexican block build (if you can find one)
Wait for the new FMS Sportsman blocks
Dart Sportsman
Forged, lightened internals all zero balanced
331 or 347 stroker (vs. a heavier 351 based block)
Custom cam and iduction capable of supporting say... 7 to 8 thousand RPM

And yes... you are forgetting something. None of the above will get you to 10 sec. on a street car without doing something to upgrade suspension and traction. You have the option of doing it cheaply for straight line launches (not good for daily driving) or you can drop some big cash down on coil over kits, and suspension packages from places like MM, Steeda, Kenny Brown, or any of the other outfits out there that are into making car planting goodies for road and track.

There are a number of ways to get what you're looking for. Above is just my approach. Forget about the DSS level 20 junk. It's more gimmick than performance. There's really nothing you can do to a stock block to make it stronger other than maybe partially filling the thing with block cement.

 

[rd]

To get to that performance, I would get a shortblock and heads from a more perf oriented place, like DSS, or similar. Use a TCI or PA trans package. It will need a local machine shop to help, imho.

 

[FORCED2DV8]

I'm with Daggar on this, Dont bother with a DSS level whatever block, its still a stock block and it will break if you plan a doing repeated 10 sec runs.
Use a Dart or A4 or world products has its own block out now thats better than stock. Being you want it N/A you are going to need valvetrain that will handle higher rpms, as well as suspension. It might not run to well on 93 alone you may have to mix it depending on your final comp ratio. I would build a 408 out of a 351, There are several places to source a good tranny, TCI, or a local builder is just as well.

 

[Blown95Cobra]

I wouldn't use either one of those builds but that's just me.

If you're planning to get a reliable 10 seconds out of high compression normally aspirated motor then you must also be planning for a decent rev range. Sure it can be done, but at what cost? Pston deflection, main bearing walk, the list goes on....

Suggestions:

Mexican block build (if you can find one)
Wait for the new FMS Sportsman blocks
Dart Sportsman
Forged, lightened internals all zero balanced
331 or 347 stroker (vs. a heavier 351 based block)
Custom cam and iduction capable of supporting say... 7 to 8 thousand RPM

Wouldn't a 392 or 408 make more power than a 331 or 347? Is a 331 or 347 safer at high RPM?

And yes... you are forgetting something. None of the above will get you to 10 sec. on a street car without doing something to upgrade suspension and traction. You have the option of doing it cheaply for straight line launches (not good for daily driving) or you can drop some big cash down on coil over kits, and suspension packages from places like MM, Steeda, Kenny Brown, or any of the other outfits out there that are into making car planting goodies for road and track.

For suspension I'm going to get this kit from Jegs, weld up/box the torque boxes, and an 8 point cage to stiffen up the chassis and keep me safe if/when something happens. Its gonna be a staight line car so turning isnt really a priority. Does that sound like a decent set up?

There are a number of ways to get what you're looking for. Above is just my approach. Forget about the DSS level 20 junk. It's more gimmick than performance. There's really nothing you can do to a stock block to make it stronger other than maybe partially filling the thing with block cement.

I assumed the DSS stuff wouldnt be too much stronger than stock but I was just going by what they said. I havent really seen too many people running level 10 and 20 blocks. Then again, I havent searched either.

To get to that performance, I would get a shortblock and heads from a more perf oriented place, like DSS, or similar. Use a TCI or PA trans package. It will need a local machine shop to help, imho.

I was thinking about a TCI Super Streetfighter C4 with a transbrake. What do you think?

Use a Dart or A4 or world products has its own block out now thats better than stock. Being you want it N/A you are going to need valvetrain that will handle higher rpms, as well as suspension. It might not run to well on 93 alone you may have to mix it depending on your final comp ratio. I would build a 408 out of a 351, There are several places to source a good tranny, TCI, or a local builder is just as well.

I had looked at the A4 block but I figured if I get a 69-74 351w I'd be good to go since they are supposed to be pretty strong. The valvetrain shouldnt be too bad. Springs will come with the heads, then get roller lifters, roller rockers, and a cam. Should I go with solid lifters? I heard you have to adjust your rockers alot with a solid lifter setup

Please forgive my n00bieness. This is my first indepth build and I want to make sure I dont waste money or get the wrong parts

 

[Modular2v]

go with daggars advice

 

[lxwants12's]

I agree with Dagger..but if i were you i would worry bout suspension..u say u want a street car meaning DONT just set it up to go straight youll hate urself later...even if u think ur just gonna cruise the streets and only race in a straight line...there will come a time on a long stretch of windy road or a turn on the highway when u will run into a vette or camaro and u wont be able to resist the temptation....

 

[Blown95Cobra]

So I should go with a 331 or 347 and a nice coilover setup? About how much will a coilover kit cost?

 

[Rick 91GT]

A streetable 10 sec NA car is in the eye of the beholder what is streetable to me may not be streetable to you. It is much easier to obtain with forced induction and smaller cubic inches, but the DART block will take cubic dollars..lol

Howver to go mid 10's @ 125+mph you'll need about 450RWHP.

If your stuck on a 351W early model stock block based set-up, I would go 408ci, 11:1 or as close as you can get (it would be a dished piston to get it lower then 12:1), a AFR205 or 225 head, Super Victor, Custom Street solid roller, 850cfm carb, 1.875" header, 3" exhaust.

10 sec power will not be a problem.....

Coil Overs are the best set-up to go with IMO, a typical front kit is about $150, plus a good set of adjustable struts $230, CC plates $170

What type of budget are you working with.....

 

[bluevenom867]

I would do something similar to Ricks only a few differnaces.

1 3/4" (1.75") headers

Victor Jr,with touched-up plenum/port match and 1" open/4-hole combo spacer

An 850 with down leg style booster is alright,but a 950 with annulars should give close to the same throttle responce and better pull in the top end.But both are good...an 850 with annular style booster would defnity pack a power advantage in part throttle and low end torque,though.

I would do either AFR 205's or TFS R heads.The 225 would work to,but you dont need them to go 10's n/a.

And finaly,having run a hyd. roller in a 408 similar to what I just said,I would say there is now way you will get a more streetable set-up.Solid roller is just to get more lift/duration in with out pushing valvetrain limits on everything.Cause if I could make a HUGE hyd. roller,I would still be runnig that in our 427 Im building.

 

[FastDriver]

I'm with Rick and bluevenom on this one. If you want to do it n/a, then there really is no replacement for displacement. There's no reason in the world to stay with a 302-based block when you're trying to put down 10 second power. I'd do the tried and true 408 setup...

Since you want to keep it streetable, stick with a hydrolic roller setup, TFS-R intake, a custom cam, and AFR225s. You don't need any fancy block, a normal Windsor will take that kind of power on a good tune. Get the car as light as possible, and I honestly don't think you'll need anything extravagent for suspension. A good 90/10 front strut with soft springs and 50/50 rear should get your 60' time within range for you to be running 10s without a problem.

This isn't going to be a cheap build. You can also find some of those folks touting the cleveland engines, I hear they can do it for pretty cheap, but I don't have any personal experience with 'em.

Good luck,

Chris

 

[Blown95Cobra]

A streetable 10 sec NA car is in the eye of the beholder what is streetable to me may not be streetable to you.

Streetable to me is running on 93 octane

Howver to go mid 10's @ 125+mph you'll need about 450RWHP.

If your stuck on a 351W early model stock block based set-up, I would go 408ci, 11:1 or as close as you can get (it would be a dished piston to get it lower then 12:1), a AFR205 or 225 head, Super Victor, Custom Street solid roller, 850cfm carb, 1.875" header, 3" exhaust.

10 sec power will not be a problem.....

I'm not really stuck on a 351w. I figured it would be the best small block option since stock blocks are strong and shouldnt be hard to find. Is a solid cam really needed?

Coil Overs are the best set-up to go with IMO, a typical front kit is about $150, plus a good set of adjustable struts $230, CC plates $170

What type of budget are you working with.....

What are good coilovers, QA1?

I'm not really on a budget. I dont wanna blow a ton of money on the best of the best parts but I dont want to cheap out either. I'm not going to be competing or anything like that. I want to be able to take it to the track, get my speed fix and not have to repair it every weekend.

I would do something similar to Ricks only a few differnaces.

1 3/4" (1.75") headers

Victor Jr,with touched-up plenum/port match and 1" open/4-hole combo spacer

Do you think the 1 7/8" headers are overkill? What will the open/4 hole spacer do? I'm new to carbs.

An 850 with down leg style booster is alright,but a 950 with annulars should give close to the same throttle responce and better pull in the top end.But both are good...an 850 with annular style booster would defnity pack a power advantage in part throttle and low end torque,though.

What the diff between a down leg style and annular style? By booster are you talking about the secondaries?

I would do either AFR 205's or TFS R heads.The 225 would work to,but you dont need them to go 10's n/a.

What about a set of the TFS 205cc Twisted Wedge heads? All of the R Series are high port so I would need custom headers. How do the TFS heads compare to the AFR 205's?

And finaly,having run a hyd. roller in a 408 similar to what I just said,I would say there is now way you will get a more streetable set-up.Solid roller is just to get more lift/duration in with out pushing valvetrain limits on everything.Cause if I could make a HUGE hyd. roller,I would still be runnig that in our 427 Im building.

How much lift/duration can you get from a hyd before you need to switch to solid?

BTW, would having the motor ready for spray change the build? I figured I'd ask incase I decide to do it later, as of now I'd rather not. Thanks for the help guys, it is very appreciated

 

[Blown95Cobra]

Since you want to keep it streetable, stick with a hydrolic roller setup, TFS-R intake, a custom cam, and AFR225s.

Arent the 225's kinda big?

You don't need any fancy block, a normal Windsor will take that kind of power on a good tune.

I know tuning is a MAJOR factor in how long an engine will last. That is one thing I will not take for granted

Get the car as light as possible, and I honestly don't think you'll need anything extravagent for suspension. A good 90/10 front strut with soft springs and 50/50 rear should get your 60' time within range for you to be running 10s without a problem.

The car is going on a diet. If its not needed it wont be there. Why wouldnt you run a coilover? Not really needed or just your preference?

This isn't going to be a cheap build. You can also find some of those folks touting the cleveland engines, I hear they can do it for pretty cheap, but I don't have any personal experience with 'em.

Good luck,

Chris

There is a local guy running a .30 over Cleveland with a nasty cam. I dont know too much bout it but he hardly ever races it. I think he's worried bout popping it

 

[bluevenom867]

Streetable to me is running on 93 octane

Well that wont be to hard to do

I'm not really stuck on a 351w. I figured it would be the best small block option since stock blocks are strong and shouldnt be hard to find. Is a solid cam really needed?

No,you dont need a solid cam,that depends upon your vavle spring set-up

What are good coilovers, QA1?

Our combo,is Strange coil overs struts(there adjustable) up front and QA1 single adjustables in back.The QA1 struts you have to use their camber plates so it makes them cost more...

I'm not really on a budget. I dont wanna blow a ton of money on the best of the best parts but I dont want to cheap out either. I'm not going to be competing or anything like that. I want to be able to take it to the track, get my speed fix and not have to repair it every weekend.



Do you think the 1 7/8" headers are overkill? What will the open/4 hole spacer do? I'm new to carbs.

Yea,I have seen 8 sec car with 1 3/4" headers...(though I probably would have 1 7/8" [or if its a nitrous car 2"] headers on them.)The spacer helps straighten and speed the air up,it also gives the manifold more plenum volume (and if you have you get one made for it,it can even pick up flow through the carb!).

What the diff between a down leg style and annular style? By booster are you talking about the secondaries?

The boosters are thous smaller "ventruii on a stick" that go into the main throttle bores.Google it or search here,learn the differance between the two.

What about a set of the TFS 205cc Twisted Wedge heads? All of the R Series are high port so I would need custom headers. How do the TFS heads compare to the AFR 205's?

205cc is an awsome head,I just dont know how much there going for now.You can get the TFS R heads for under $1600 still.Actualy,Hooker makes a set of 1 3/4" headers for the TFS R heads,so really you wouldnt need custom headers

How much lift/duration can you get from a hyd before you need to switch to solid?

The cam in our 408 was a custom grind hyd. roller (.608In/.585Ex 264*In/271*Ex @.050 111 LSA

BTW, would having the motor ready for spray change the build? I figured I'd ask incase I decide to do it later, as of now I'd rather not. Thanks for the help guys, it is very appreciated

Not if its a small shot (under 250),if you gonna ever hit it with that or more,then make sure you get a nitrous spec. piston (they will have a differant crown design and be more "robust")and cam.

 

[thegabrielles]

Well, if you look at my sig, I ran a 12.16 at 116mph in a 3700lb mustang with a 2.20 60ft. Had issues that day but expected to hit mid 11's. With a diet and a good tune I should see high 10's.
My setup:
351W +.030 with Keith Black Hyper pistons (there lighter than forged and sinc epower adders were not in the plan its a good alternative) These are flat tops, with valve reliefs cut in them to yield just under 10.5:1 CR. The rods were polished and the crank is bone stock. By the way it is a 71 351, if I remember correctly

The heads are the TFS High Ports (the old steel ones) The hooker headers are a great fit considereing but do come REAL close to the K frame ina couple of spots, and the are a SOB to install. (they have to go in before the motor and then you have to keep the motor jacked up a bit to connect them) That was the easiest way I found anyway. My heads were treated to a Stage 2 port and polish and have the original dual springs and stainles valves.
The intake is a Victor Jr with a 750 DP, I did tune it a bit to the motor.
I opted for a solid cam and will do that again with the rebuild. The cam was good to 6800 rpm, I hated spinning it that high with a stock crank so at one point I brought the power band down, BIG mistake. The motor just did not pull like it did with the first cam. It was around .560 lift adn 300 duration. The car had a stock WC T-5 in it (high 2.95 first gear did not help getting all the weight moving) adn 4.10 rear.

Suspension...NOTHing fancy. I actually have the bottom end of an 86 SVO on the car so it has the Koni adjustable shocks and struts. I adjusted the front to full soft and the rear to full hard. Remeoved the front sway bar to help in weight transfer. The springs are the FMS Kit with stock (boxed) upper contol arms and Southside lift bars. This suspesion set up gave me a 1.83 60 ft on street tires (245 50/ 16 Firehawks) but on a slick track it did not respond well to the Mickeys. I race the car through the mufflers with DOT tires, sometime s it works sometimes it does not.

The point of all this is that a LIGHT mustang and a good motor with the right set up will get you in the 10's without spending a lot of money. A stroker 351 will make a LOT of power but spend the money in the heads, a early 351 will take it N/A. But if you plan on any power adders, get a good block, pistons , and rods or you will be picking up pieces with a shovel. By the way when is a 250 shot a small shot... I thought small was 75 or 100.

Good Luck with your set up.

 

[Blown95Cobra]

Bluevenom867 did you mean heads when you said "You can get the TFS R headers for under $1600 still."? So If I get nitrous friendly pistons and cam now could the cam hurt me without spray?

Thegabrielles, thanks for the tip on the headers. Why is your car so heavy? With the right internals do you think a windsor block handle 500RWHP and a 150 shot on top of it?

BTW, what is the diff between the 351w's? I was looking at pistons and they say like 73-up. What was diff on the early motors?

 

[thegabrielles]

Not really sure, it started life as an 82GT, no air no power windows. The car has been modified with Capri Fenders (no extra weight) ground effects, SVO bottom end, SVO wheels (they are HEAVY), roll cage, sub frames, at the time it had a decent stereo and speaker box in it. WHen its all said and done it should not be that heavy. I wish I knew but as parts fly off it hopefully it will be considerably lighter this time, I am shooting for 3300 but would love 3100.
Will at stock winsor handle 500RWHP? AND a 150 shot? My guess would be NO WAY. Rmember you dont need 500RWHP for 10's, with the right weight car you can do it with 420-450RWHP. All depends on your driveline. You said you will be running an auto so in order to make 500RWHP you will need around 600FWHP. Thats a LOT of motor for the street and in my opinion you can not get N/A and still have it streetable. Thats 92 Octane to me by the way. If you are shooting for that you will need the best block crank, rods and pistons you can possibly afford, especially if you are going to run a 150 shot on top of it.

 

[thegabrielles]

Actually I am not sure of the exact differences but I have just always heard the pre-73 blocks are a lot stronger.

 

[Blown95Cobra]

I know an auto will need more power to make that to the ground than a 5spd would. So 450ishRWHP (through an auto?) will make it into the 10's...hmm thats less than what I was thinking. I figured I'd need low 500's to get there.

 

[thegabrielles]

You have to rmember its not always about the power but also the set up. Gears traction, weight all have to factor into it. More HP will give you a higher trap speed but not necessarily a lower ET. A 400RWHP could possibly break into the 10's given the right circumstances, I have read on hear where that has happened but never saw it myself. Check out his calculator http://www.speedworldmotorplex.com/calc.htm
Remember this is not an exact science so take the numbers witha grain of salt. But you can change weight and see what a difference it makes.